Interview with Clyde Sartor, July 26, 2016

Partial Transcript: So Dr. Sartor, could you state your full name and tell me a bit about yourself, just to get started?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about his experience at the University of Mississippi, where he received a bachelor's of science and a masters in biology. Sartor adds that he received a PhD in entomology at Mississippi State University. Sartor shares that after graduation, he later became the designated cotton entomologist for the state of Mississippi before he came to work at a Elba Laboratories where he gathered data as a researcher for cotton development. Sartor talks about his parent's careers; his father was the manager of a grocery story, and his mother was the manager of a women's clothing store. Sartor describes his hometown of Water Valley, Mississippi as a close-knit, quiet community. Sartor recalls that he was often involved in nature related activities such as fishing and hunting, and always had an interest in agriculture.

Keywords: Elba Laboratories; Entomology; Hinds Community College; Mississippi State; Thomas Edwards; University of Mississippi; Water Valley, Mississippi

Partial Transcript: I was fortunate enough to have a man living in Water Valley that was one of the first professional...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains how Tom Edwards, one of the first professional agricultural consultants for the state of Mississippi, taught him about agriculture. Sartor explains that his experience with Tom Edwards was one of his earliest experiences in agricultural consulting. Sartor explains that he first started scouting cotton fields with Edwards in 1962, during which he observed the harm caused to fields by the Boll Weevil. Sartor explains cotton farming as manually intensive labor, though much of the process of cotton picking was mechanical. Sartor talks about the many forms of pesticides used in the 60's including DDT, powder and liquid pesticides, and methylpyridine. He explains the use of ground machines, including high clearance rigs for pesticide control.

Keywords: 3-methylpyridine; Boll Weevil; DDT (pesticide); Thomas Edwards

Partial Transcript: In fact, I've seen those three-wheel drive Haehs turned over...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains that the three-wheel drive Haehn (a pesticide application machine) was less stable than the similar four-wheel drive Haehn. Sartor then recalls that, during his cotton scouting days, there were few irrigation systems in place for cotton fields, as too much water would cause cotton plants to grow too tall and eventually rot on the highest parts of the plant. Sartor recalls that throughout his career, boll weevils were the most prominent pest for cotton fields. He explains that other pests including lupers, spider mites, bud worms, and boll worms also disrupted crop production, though not to the extent of the boll weevils. Sartor states that most of the client farmers of today tend to mis-apply insecticide against the wish of consultants. Sartor explains his belief that DDT is not as potent to the environment as proclaimed by environmentalists. Sartor recalls that DDT was targeted in 1970's by environmentalists as it was one of the most commonly used insecticides.

Keywords: DDT; Insecticide; boll weevil; boll worms; bud worm; irrigation; spider mites

Partial Transcript: So you said DDT wasn't that potent, of course...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains his belief that DDT was not as potent to the environment as proclaimed by environmentalists. Sartor opines that utilizing DDT as a insecticide could have prevented the outbreak of diseases such as the Zika virus, which is carried through mosquitoes. Sartor talks about how people served as flagmen for the planes that sprayed insecticide over the crops. He also talks about how he believes his exposure to insecticide seems to not have caused chronic health issues, though he doesn't recommend walking through fields after recent insecticide application. Sartor relates an interaction with cotton choppers (a mostly African American population) who he states were verbally abusive, due to what he claims was "racial factors".

Keywords: DDT (pesticide); Silent Springs; World Health Organization; Zika Virus; insecticide

Partial Transcript: And so over the course of the 60's, herbicide started coming in...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor recalls the emergence of herbicides, a form of pesticide used to kill weeds and other plants, over the course of the 1960's in America. Sartor talks about how the introduction of herbicides led to the unemployment of choppers, whom he claims didn't need to work because of welfare. Sartor explains how technology led to the lack of employment of tractor and machine operators, as increasing the size of machinery meant there was less machinery (and employees) necessary. Sartor also talks about how the flagmen used to guide the insecticide dusting planes usually had minimal education, as they only needed to know how to count to navigate the many rows of the cotton fields. Sartor relates an experience where he flew with an aero-applicator, during which he says he gained respect for the pilot's abilities to navigate the field.

Keywords: Thomas Edwards; herbicide; tractors

Partial Transcript: What was your favorite thing about cotton scouting in the early days?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor recalls that working outside was his favorite thing about cotton scouting during his youth. He then talks about how he didn't like getting wet from the rain and morning dew. Sartor relates a story of when he accidentally exposed himself to a concentrated dosage of insecticide, which led him to develop concentrated phosphate poisoning. He emphasizes that the poisoning was caused by his negligence, particularly the fact that he removed his gloves at some point during the pesticide mixing process.

Keywords: boll weevil; cotton scouting; pesticide application

Partial Transcript: Were you normally the person who applied the chemicals?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains that farm workers were often given the task of applying ground pesticides through ground machinery, and that such ground pesticide applicators came to be used as often as aero-pesticide applicators during the late 60's and early 70's. Sartor explains that the proposed idea of insecticide application by helicopter was inefficient due to mechanical problems and the fact that insecticide often entered the cockpit of the helicopter and exposed the pilot to insecticide. Sartor then talks about how GPS technology has helped aero-applicators in understanding the accuracy of pesticide spraying and positioning.

Keywords: Global Positioning System (GPS); insecticide

Partial Transcript: The sixties were the time of major cotton allotments, right?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about how the 60's was the decade that marked the increase of cotton, rice, and peanut crops. Sartor explains that in the mid-1960's there was a shortage of labor which Sartor claims is because of the increase of welfare offered by the government. Sartor describes his position that the lack of reliable labor eventually led to the increase technological innovation to account for the lack of workers. Sartor explains that, during his experience as a cotton scout, he realized that farmers varied on their level of concern for the safety of their laborers. Sartor recalls that there was no official training provided for farm workers handling insecticides, and that farm workers who stole insecticide for household application often put themselves and families at risk through their direct contact with the chemicals. Sartor recalls that workers often displayed psycho symptomatic behaviors when exposed to the pesticides, as workers often proclaimed that the felt sicker when exposed to foul-smelling herbicides, regardless of the herbicide's potency.

Keywords: herbicide; labor; technology; welfare

Partial Transcript: Which ones were more pungent?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains that some insecticides such as malathion, produces a bad smell which he claims might have influenced farmers in their choice of insecticide. Sartor explains that some insecticides were serious eye irritants, as some were infused with the chemicals present in peppers. Sartor talks about how the complexities innate to cotton manufacturing is what sparked his interest in cotton.

Keywords: Mississippi State; malathion (insecticide); synthetic pyrethroid (insecticide)

Partial Transcript: Did you have an insect that you found more interesting that any other insect?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains that the plant bug was one of the most interesting insects he studied, as there was a lot unknown about the bug's biology and the impact the insect had on the plant. Sartor explains that the confusion over the pest's effect often created tensions between entomologist and the agriculture community, as many scientists believed that the plant bug did not harm cotton plants. Sartor explains the plant bug was often blamed for irregular cotton growing patterns during the late '70's and early '80's. He explains that the plant bug population increased in correlation with the increased emergence of corn crops in the United States, as the plant bug population often contaminated corn crops. Sartor explains that he doesn't take a polar position in the ideas whether or not the plant bug is harmful, as the science on the insect is not well-developed.

Keywords: Plant Bugs; corn crop; entomologist

Partial Transcript: But did it really effect yield that much?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains that the strange cotton growth patterns, known as crazy cotton, might have been caused by the plant bug. Sartor includes, however, that crazy cotton often produced just as much cotton as plants displaying regular growth patterns. Sartor recalls that the dis-alignment between Missisippi's University and agricultural consultants over the threat posed by plant bugs to cotton crops resulted in tension between the two groups. Sartor then talks about how he came to receive a good education at the University of Mississippi, which eventually led him to teach at a community college at North Alabama. Sartor explains that when he came to acquire his Master's degree at Mississippi State University, he realized that he had a great foundation in the fundamentals of biology as opposed to his peers.

Keywords: Mississippi State University; University of Mississippi; University of North Alabama; crazy cotton; herbicide; plant bug

Partial Transcript: I'm not going to say where they went to school...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about how his strong foundation in biology at the University of Mississippi helped him in obtaining his masters at Mississippi State University. Sartor talks how his teachers in community college helped him to build his approach towards teaching. Sartor recalls the integration of the first black student to Mississippi State University, James Meredith. Sartor talks about the biology PhD program at the Mississippi State University. Sartor explains that the program provided quality teaching services, though cotton and insect research were the primary concerns of the department.

Keywords: Mississippi State University; University of Mississippi; biology

Partial Transcript: You said cotton research was the driving force even though you did your research on seed pines?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains that he conducted research at Mississippi State over the resistance of pine cones to insect species. Sartor expands on the point by explaining that paper companies often needed pine trees that were resistant to certain pesticides in the effort to maximize profits. Sartor adds that before he left Mississippi State University to teach at Gaston College in North Carolina, he planted pine trees behind the University's boll weevil lab. Sartor recalls that while he was planting the trees, he was offered a job by a fellow professor to work as an entomologist at the University of Mississippi.

Keywords: Gaston College, North Carolina; Mississippi State University; boll weevil; seed pines

Partial Transcript: When was the shift between the old school instructor and the new school instructor?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor recalls that the "old school" entemology instructors at Mississippi State University differed in their teaching approach from the younger generation of instructors at Mississippi State University. Sartor explains that the older instructors mostly conducted research with the intent of the potential applied practicality of the research conducted, while the younger instructors taught with an emphasis on the implications of plant pathology and ways of developing plant resistance. Sartor recalls that as a survey entomologist hired by Mississippi State University, he provided information to the U.S Department of Agriculture (USDA) about the condition of insects in the region, and how they were impacting the agricultural systems of Mississippi.

Keywords: Mississippi State University; US Department of Agriculture (USDA); plant pathology

Partial Transcript: So did you spend any more time with one region...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains that as a survey entomologist working for Mississippi State University, he conducted the majority of his research over cotton research, which he reported to the US Department of Agriculture (USDA). Sartor recalls that collaboration between the state and federal researchers seldom resulted in tension between the two groups. Sartor then explains that the boll weevil was the primary bug problem for cotton throughout the south. He adds that there were many problems created from the attempts by the agricultural community to control the population of the boll weevil. Sartor recalls that the bug worm became a pest due to the resistance of the bug to the phosphate based pesticides that were applied to control the boll weevil population.

Keywords: Mississippi State University; US Department of Agriculture (USDA); entomology

Partial Transcript: Why was the boll weevil so bad?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about how the boll weevil's high reproductive potential and its tendency to live inside the cotton plant for the majority of its life cycle makes it a formidable pest in cotton production. Sartor explains that boll weevil research has contributed greatly to the knowledge available on the boll weevil, which he claims has saved a substantial sum of money over years. Sartor talks about how he came to develop integrated pest management courses after working as an entomologist for about two years. Sartor then explains the difference between pest control and integrated pest management, as pest control is based on chemical application of pesticides to crops, while pest management takes into account the economic and environmental factors associated with pest control.

Keywords: Integrated Pest Management (IPM); Mississippi State University; boll weevil

Partial Transcript: Why was it that some people would just poison immediately if they saw one boll weevil?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about how farmers would often overuse insecticide in dealing with pests simply because they would make the assumption that one pest confirmed the presence of others. Sartor talks about how pesticide companies were initially opposed to pest management, as pest management integrated environmental and economic factors in developing crop treatment plans. Sartor explains the network of members of the pesticide community in Mississippi as manufacturers often had research and technology representatives while the "local dealers" distributed pesticides and pesticide services to farmers in the region. Sartor talks about tactics employed by pesticide salesmen to encourage farmers to buy their products. He explains how the diction used by the salesman to scare farmers into applying pesticides often resulted in the overuse of pesticide products, which benefited the pesticide manufacturers.

Keywords: Gary Larson; boll weevil; pesticide

Partial Transcript: I would be quick to tell you...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about how some pesticide salesmen avoided exaggerating the recommended pesticide application dosage, as this often resulted in customer loss over time. Sartor recalls the variation in the results of different pesticides, as some pesticides did not work well, while others posed a threat to the ecosystem and humans. Sartor relates how the Mississippi agricultural industries were made aware of the future ban on the insecticide DDT in the 1970's, as they were warned by members of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Sartor talks about Project Safeguard, which Sartor claims was an attempt by the EPA to control pesticide usage in the United States. Sartor talks about how the organic phosphates used in pesticides were the primary concern of the government organization, though he states that long-residual chlorinated hydrocarbons should also have been addressed in government policies.

Keywords: DDT(insecticide); Environmental Protection Agency (EPA); Project Safeguard; ecosystem; pesticide

Partial Transcript: Were there reports of tenants getting poisoned...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about how tenant farmers who worked in tobacco were most likely to get poisoned from the organic phosphates present in chemical pesticides. Sartor shares his belief that the environmentalists of the 1970's employed scare tactics in order to push their agenda. Sartor talks about how the ban of the insecticide DDT resulted in the loss of life in third world countries as DDT prevented mosquito-born diseases in those areas. Sartor explains his belief that DDT should still be used, but should be more regulated in its application.

Keywords: Environmental Protection Agency (EPA); Mississippi State; chlorinated hydrocarbons; insecticide

Partial Transcript: You were working with extension through '75...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about his involvement in the development of cotton scouting programs in counties where there was a lack of professional cotton consultants. Sartor describes how he was hired as a scout supervisor in DeSoto County, Mississippi. Sartor recalls how he came to develop many cotton scouting programs throughout Mississippi. Sartor talks about the difference between working with small farmers versus large farming "delta farming". Sartor states that small farmers had more diverse crops and often raised animals, while large farmers mostly grew selective crops on a larger scale.

Keywords: Calhoun County, Mississippi; DeSoto County, Mississippi; delta farming

Partial Transcript: So did soil type ever play a role when it came to what sort of recommendations...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains that sandy loam soil was a more versatile soil for cotton crop growing, while heavy land soils often experienced different types of problems concerning insecticides. Sartor talks about how he came to inspect the effects of herbicide and plant diseases on crops as a cotton consultant working for Abbott Pesticide Manufacturers. Sartor talks about how he addressed misapplications of herbicide; he states that, as a consultant, he attempted to handle situations as diplomatically as possible though some farmers were too difficult to deal with.

Keywords: Abbott Pesticide Manufacturers; herbicide; insecticide; sandy land; sandy loam

Partial Transcript: How did you decide, what led you to make the switch from...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains that his interest in biological control led him to develop his career in cotton consulting. Sartor adds that cotton consulting paid higher than extension work for Abbot pesticide manufacturers. Sartor recalls that his extension work led him to travel to many cotton-growing places in Central and South America.

Keywords: Aboott Pesticide Manufacturers; Brazil; El Salvador; Guatemala; University of Arizona; cotton consulting

Partial Transcript: What was cotton production like in Central America at the time?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about his extension work in Central America. Sartor recalls a particular visit to Guatemala, where he came to offer advice to a former Texan about his cotton crops in the United States. Sartor describes his visit to Nicaragua, which was a politically tormoiled region during the 1970's. Sartor also recalls his visit to Columbia, during which he states that he had a constant fear of the drug cartel.

Keywords: Columbia; Guatemala; Nicaragua; politics

Partial Transcript: But the technologies were basically the same down there?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about how the technology available in Central and South America varied in its development in relation to the cotton technologies offered in the United States. Sartor explains that application technologies were less developed than that in the United States, and relates that children were often hired for boll weevil collection in cotton fields. Sartor then recalls that scientific names assisted in the language barrier during his consulting work, though he did often need assistance in Brazil due to the variety of languages spoken in the country. Sartor recalls that during his travels in the Americas, the most common cotton pest he encountered were boll worms, bug worms, boll weevil, aphids, flee-hoppers, and lupers; though there was variation from country to country.

Keywords: aphids; boll weevil; boll worm; bug worm; flee-hoppers; loopers

Partial Transcript: What made you get out of that and into consulting?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about why he decided to stop conducting extension work for Abbott Pesticide Manufacturers. Sartor explains that the emergence of Pyrethroid insecticide proved to be more effective than the insecticide that Abbot was selling. Sartor recalls one of his experiences working with Abbott Pesticide Manufacturer, in which he took part in a community pest management program. Sartor explains that the event, though it did not eliminate the budworm problem, did teach farmers about the coordination needed for a community pest management program. Sartor talks about the advantage of large scale pesticide initiatives, as it serves as a better method for a sharp reduction in the pest population.

Keywords: Greenwood, Mississippi; Holmes Mississippi; Pyrazole insecticide; Pyrethroid; cotton consulting; pest management

Partial Transcript: How was the transition? What was consulting like at that time?

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about the difference between private consulting and consulting for the company Abbott pesticide manufacturers. Sartor explains that, as a private consultant, he had to manage problems in his company and often had to make large monetary decisions. Sartor explains that he often was concerned over the health of his employees, and concern whether his customers would pay after recieving insecticide services. Sartor talks about how private consulting was labor heavy. Sartor talks about how he found cotton scouts from communities nearby. Sartor explains that he often still checks for skin melanoma from his days of working in direct sun.

Keywords: business; cotton consulting; management; private consulting

Partial Transcript: Most of the folks who worked with you...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor talks about how he found most of his potential cotton scouts from his community. Sartor explains that the scouts he chose often had to have high endurance as they worked long shifts and had one day a week off. Sartor recalls how the United States farm crisis of the 1980's led him to lose clients and resulted in competition between consultants. Sartor explains that during this time, he often conducted research services for insecticide companies. Sartor explains that cotton quality was not a major concern in his line of work, as his customers were more concerned with the quantity of cotton produced.

Keywords: 1980's farm crisis; cotton scout

Partial Transcript: Unlike a lot of consultants...

Segment Synopsis: Sartor explains that he often was involved with the defoliation techniques throughout his career as a private consultant. Sartor recalls that growth regulators were often used for cotton defoliation in order to speed up the cotton picking process. Sartor talks about how farmers with business experience were some of the best farmers. Sartor explains that the costs associated with cotton made cotton growing a high-risk investment. Sartor recalls that he conducted private cotton consulting services all throughout southern America and he worked with many sized fields.

Keywords: defoliation; investments