Interview with Howard Wallace, March 26, 2019

RBRL418GAA-022-Wallace

JEWEL WALKER-HARPS:You ready?

M:Mm.

WALKER-HARPS:Today, March the 26th, 2019. We're at the University of Georgia, Griffin campus, with African American Oral History Project. We have as our guest today Attorney Howard Wallace. We have interviewing him today Art Cain, John Cruickshank, Richard Braman, and myself, Jewel Walker-Harps. Now, we're going to be doing this a little different from what we normally do in terms of allowing Howard to, what, tell us who he is, what he does, or who he has been in Griffin and to kind of tell us his story. And we know that he's not African 00:01:00American but we know that he had a prominent life here in Griffin. And he would have knowledge of the impact of other aspects of a community that would have had a very positive or negative impact on the life of African Americans. So, we're just going to let him tell us what he'd like to share with us and then we will ask him questions so that he can fill in the gaps. So, now, just tell us a little bit about yourself and go right into your story, Attorney Wallace.

HOWARD WALLACE:Okay, I'm Howard Wallace. I'm a native of Griffin. My father was a native of Griffin and his father was a native. We go back a long way. The old family home where my father was raised still stands precariously on Wallace Road in east Spalding County, west Butts County, right there on the line 00:02:00and -- I-75 goes. So, we've been here a long time. I grew up -- I was born September the 10th, 1930, right in the heart of the Depression. My father was the probate judge. They called it then ordinary, which was -- dealt with -- it had some judicial functions but mostly it was clerical. It was for marriage licenses, things like that that -- a probate of wills, that sort of thing, was his job. And when I grew up, and I grew up sort of in the courthouse, in the public life, I was born in the house on -- am I getting too far or going too far?

WALKER-HARPS:No, you're doing --

M:Right, excellent.

WALKER-HARPS:-- no, you're doing -- it's yours--

WALLACE:I was born in a house that still stands on Taylor Street. I don't know that I'd -- 794, I think, on Taylor Street. It's between the 00:03:00chicken place, Chik-fil-A and Bonanza, in that block right there. The house, you'll notice it still stands. I was born in that house in 1930 and went -- my first school was Fourth Ward, which was virtually right around the corner. Fourth Ward then was where the police precinct is now. That was the early grammar school. In those days, the -- well, still is, I guess. This school board is a separate political entity from the city or the country. And the school board, somebody asked why did they name 'em wards. I really had no answer to that except that that was what the school board did and they just had four sections of the city and they had -- and there were four wards in 00:04:00there: second, third, fourth, and first, I guess. And Fourth Ward was this side. What was down here, Jewel, that --

WALKER-HARPS:West Griffin?

WALLACE:West Griffin, and I don't know what ward it was in. And they always called it West Griffin.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, yes, yeah.

WALLACE:It was Fourth Ward, Third Ward, West Griffin, and Northside. Those were the four grammar schools. Then, in 1937, my family moved to Maple Drive, which was an extension of 6th Street. It was a new subdivision that was being promoted by Mr. Nat Bailey and his brother and brother-in-law called Forest Hills. So, my folks moved out there and I then went to Third Ward from the second on through. There was a complete segregation of schools at that time. Growing up, 00:05:00there were maids that came into your life in some sort of function or another but I didn't have much contact with Afro-American people as a child. We had a maid that came. She lived on Boyds Road, Mattie May Lemmons. Her husband was Robert Lemmons. They later -- during the Depression, even moved to Cincinnati to find a better life up there. They had no children and so they picked up and left, which was heartbreaking to me. I was a child and Mattie May, who was a comforting, nurturing friend, that was my contact with Afro-Americans. And when she left, we -- my mother never could be satisfied with anybody else. 00:06:00And so, thereafter, I had no contact with the relationships that we have now until I went in the Army in 1952. At that point, everything was still, of course, separated, segregated. There hadn't been any Oklahoma School take -- there hadn't been any court case, hadn't been anything about that. When I was -- I guess when I came back was in law school. The Oklahoma case requiring integration of the schools with all deliberate speed was enacted by the Supreme Court and immediately, the law professors -- and this has always been a problem with me, that these people were learned and good people. They 00:07:00immediately -- was figuring out ways to circumvent the enforcement of that by -- they say, "Well, we can always draw district lines and we can" -- a few years back. And some of you might be old enough to remember the flap about the flag. There was a flag that had the Confederate --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:-- cross, what was on it. And to his credit, the governor, then, I think could agree to get rid of the flag if he could get the lottery -- I think there was a lot of politics but it went and it should have gone. But they said it was designed to honor the deeds of the Confederate -- brave people. It wasn't at all. I was there when the guy scratched it out in the law school basement of the law school in Athens. Scratched it out. "We'll put this bar on this flag as a -- act of defiance forever." Had nothing to do with this -- and when 00:08:00they came back, of course, it was all for this -- oh, bull. Just wasn't. There was immediate attempt to circumvent this, which -- and they did, pretty well, Jewel -- and you probably can answer this. When it -- I remember when Crescent Road School was integrated. My Steve was in school then. I think my daughter, Elizabeth had probably finished before there was an actual integration. But this is some 10 years after I left law school and that thing had happened. But there was. It was a peaceful integration here in Griffin.

WALKER-HARPS:How do you account for that, peaceful?

WALLACE:Well, I was -- I think one thing that helped, and it might have been essential and it might have been the linchpin that made the climate that made it peaceful: at the time, I was a member of St. George's Episcopal 00:09:00Church and we had a rector named Ray Averett. He was an army veteran and a paratrooper and he was -- tough old bird and had a heart as big as this building. And he was concerned with what was happening. There was problems, there was the Alabama problems, there was Albany, there was all kind of terrible problems, just terrible treatment of our fellow human beings. And he could not, in good conscience, live in this community and not do something about it. So, he formed, within the church, what is called a birac-- he called it the first and only biracial committee in the city of Griffin. And we met in the Parish Hall down at the basement of St. George on Sunday afternoon. That was very controversial. But I want to tell you, I'll make an aside: from my 00:10:00own experience, it was an epiphany for me. It helped me -- rid of all the racial injustice that was piled into my life, just like a fish swimming in a stream. It just was the way it was when I came along. And by being a part of this and meeting on a sunny afternoon basis and sharing the anxieties, fears, ambitions that Afro-Americans had that -- it was a wonderful experience, it really was. That group met and there were others. My mother was very -- she was a very fair person but she just couldn't fathom integration. And she said, "Well, you can go down there and you can meet with them but you don't have to have coffee and cookies with 'em!" That was the barrier that she and her whole South 00:11:00Carolina heritage couldn't cope with. But we did and that spread through -- and our city manager at the time, he would send the police to take the tag numbers of the cars that were parked behind the Episcopal Church. I don't know what --

WALKER-HARPS:I remember.

WALLACE:-- he was going to do with 'em. But at any rate, Mary Fitzhugh, who was also a member, she was not on the venture but she was a member of the committee. Ginger Shappard was. Ginger met with -- there was no -- Afro-Americans could not serve on jur-- or did not. They could but they did not serve on juries at the time. There'd never been one picked for a jury. And Ginger had to go see Judge McGee and he could -- though she had some prominence in the community, her husband was a wealthy mill owner, Judge McGee didn't give her time of 00:12:00day and made it almost impossible to meet with them. We got nowhere with that. As an aside, there was a court order requiring everybody's names that were eligible, of both races, all races to be placed in the jury box. What they did, and I don't know whether you know this, Jewel, or not: they put the white people's names on firm cardboard and the black people's names were on paper. So, when they reached in the box --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, no, I didn't know that.

WALLACE:-- they'd reach in the box to pull 'em out, then they could say --

WALKER-HARPS: Mhm-mm

WALLACE:-- if they were examining court, well, that name's in the -- well, yeah, the name's in the box. But they had -- that was the -- right in Mr. Lindsey's office, that's the way they pulled the jurors. The heavy ones got picked and so that whenever any Afro-American jurors -- for many, many years.

WALKER-HARPS:And who was --

WALLACE:That committee did a lot to quell -- because it was peopled by people that didn't have any real axe to grind, like me, Walter Jones, Jimmy 00:13:00Mankin others.

WALKER-HARPS:Miss Crossfield

WALLACE:Who?

WALKER-HARPS:Was -- Miss -- was Crossfield over here?

WALLACE:Miss Crossfield was on that --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:Bob, her husband was on -- Bob Crossfield was on it. Bob Smalley was very --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:-- instrumental --

WALKER-HARPS:He was --

WALLACE:-- in it.

WALKER-HARPS:-- helpful throughout.

WALLACE:And it was -- there-- I say that. I was very low person in -- far as prominence in that committee. But the committee kept things down. And when there was -- when the lunch counter at Woolworths was integrated, Mary was right there with them, you know? And nothing happened. There was never any violence, overt, for that reason. There was violence, of course. Like, we just had a conviction last year of the --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, yes.

WALLACE:-- two that -- the Klansmen that murdered the young man and 00:14:00everybody said --

WALKER-HARPS:Coggins.

WALLACE:What was his name?

WALKER-HARPS:Timothy Coggins.

WALLACE:Hodgins?

WALKER-HARPS:Coggins.

WALLACE:-- horrible, horrible crime, which was -- it really was -- when I say that it was lucky you didn't -- now, that was the way it was in the South in those days. It was just --

WALKER-HARPS:I know, yeah.

WALLACE:It just was.

WALKER-HARPS:You had crosses burned -- our the Heads had crosses burned in their --

WALLACE:I had a cross burned!

WALKER-HARPS:-- burden to us

WALLACE:You knew that. (laughs)

WALKER-HARPS:Well, we give praise to that committee. We give credit to this, well --

WALLACE:Do you?

WALKER-HARPS:-- yes, we do --

WALLACE:Do you? I --

WALKER-HARPS:-- for the stability in this community. The credit goes to that interracial community and the people who were committed to the work of that -- what they did.

RICHARD BRAMAN:I'd be curious to know: you had a cross burned on your lawn.

WALLACE:I did.

BRAMAN:And it was a direct result of being a part of the committee, is that right? Or --

WALLACE:Well, it was a result of my law practice. I just happened to represent this man. He was Mr. Copeland. He was a concrete finisher and he was 00:15:00going home, he had his trailer with his -- all of, you know, you see those things with the concrete tools in the back. And hard-working man and they stopped him on the way home and said he was driving under the influence. And we tried it and the sheriff , it was the witnesses against him and the jury found him not guilty. I don't know --

BRAMAN:Was this a -- African American guy?

WALLACE:Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, they felt like it was an affront to the sheriff's department that the jury found him not guilty when they had testified that he was driving under the influence. I don't know whether it was or not but he got a cross burned and I did, too. (laughter)

BRAMAN:So, follow up on that, was the jury that found him not guilty comprised of all white jurors or were there some African American jurors over there.

WALLACE:Yeah, I think they were all white then. That's my 00:16:00recollection. I can't remember picking Afro-American jurors until I was maybe in Clayton County, trying some combination cases up there. It was more fully integrated in Clayton. I don't remember that specifically. It was -- (laughs) I laugh about the experience because it was funny: I was certainly disappointed in the size of the cross that they gave me. (laughter) It was about like this. (laughter) And I'm not kidding! It was no taller than this and it was made out of cross -- two by fours crossed like this, covered in burlap and then doused in gasoline or something. They were -- it was burning pretty -- but it was no bigger than this and I just -- and somebody came to the door and said, "Do you know there's a cross burning in your yard?" I think this is Professor Hendricks across the street. I said, "No," and I went out and picked it up and 00:17:00threw it in the road. And they came back, (laughs) the Klan came back by sometime later and found it burning in the road and set it back up. (laughter) So, I was never frightened about anything. I saw one of the guys that did it. I saw him when he was -- his car out on Crescent Road. I'd worked with Thomas Patkin one summer. I knew him, Johnny Knowles.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:And he --

WALKER-HARPS:Everybody knew Johnny Knowles was Klan.

WALLACE:(laughs) And he was one of 'em --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:-- and he was in the car that came back, said -- and he knew me! He didn't see me but he knew the house it was. But that was such a minor incident in the whole picture of how we were getting along. I don't think that rippled anybody's community about that. But in the Army, I was in -- my first assignment was in the 509 Tank Battalion and it was the last un-integrated unit 00:18:00in the United States Army. It was composed of draftees from Upstate New York that had formed this battalion and their enlistment time was up shortly after I got to that battalion and it virtually disappeared. But that was a segregated unit. All of the noncoms and the troops were Afro-American; the officers were all white. That's the way it was in the Army. This was up until 1952, '53 when Truman ordered that there be no segregation in the services. But that was another -- see, that was an experience. I had none growing up in high school. Grammar school, high school, or college. The college experience was what -- we had a cook at the fraternity house. We loved her. Eldora was a 00:19:00good cook, a faithful cook. We had -- she had some help in the kitchen and we had two houseboys that picked up your clothes and made your beds and made us live like gentlemen at the university. That was --

WALKER-HARPS:You were out -- were you ahead or behind Hamilton Holmes and Charlie Hunter

WALLACE:Oh, I was -- they were way back.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:I mean, way after me. There was nothing like that over there then. It was just -- it was the same old de facto we're up here, you're down there. You can wait on us and we'll love you for it and hope that you will reciprocate. But it was -- there was no classes together or anything like that. In Athens. Now, I did go to school for a year for my graduate work at Indiana University and there was --

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, yeah.

WALLACE:-- some integration there. Not a whole lot, not as much as you would think in Indiana but some. And one of the restaurants there, in 00:20:00Bloomington, maintained a segregated posture, even in -- that must have been 1955, was still -- so, yeah, it's like now, Jewel, the pockets of these things all over the country that we need to get rid of. We need to --

WALKER-HARPS:Well, that's --

WALLACE:-- get rid of it rather than fostering like we're doing now the attitude of we want to go back to those days, when we want to go back to where it's master and servant and that sort of thing. And it's wrong.

WALKER-HARPS:But it's the equivalent. We -- I run into it with many cases, particularly with county government.

WALLACE:Yeah, I mean, yeah --

WALKER-HARPS: I dont care much with city but with the county government, theres still--(overlapping dialogue)

WALLACE:Still that old line --

WALKER-HARPS:-- the line, right.

WALLACE:-- old line and that's the way it -- and it's -- I don't know whether it's going to take generations to do it. I mean, you'd think -- I mean, 00:21:00I'm 88 and -- but there's people that have been born since me that still harbor this same attitude toward it that -- it's just --

WALKER-HARPS:You'd think they were taught or they're being taught because the people who were actually a witness would've died --

WALLACE:I know that!

WALKER-HARPS: Yeah, but that --

WALLACE:That's what I don't --

WALKER-HARPS:-- we still see it coming out and yeah--

WALLACE:It's still out.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:I still see it in -- among my -- I wish they could have -- that I'm saying the experience that I had on that biracial committee, just -- it made me personally -- and my rector, I -- he came by to see me one day at home and I'm out working in the yard and he said, "You just feel so smug that you're doing this." And I said, "Yeah, I guess I do." He said, "You're just doing what you ought to be doing! You're not doing anything heroic! You're just doing what you ought to be doing." And that sort of cut me down but it didn't take away the experience. And from that day, Jewel, I've been a -- I think I'm known 00:22:00as a friend in --

WALKER-HARPS:You are.

WALLACE:-- both communities.

WALKER-HARPS:You are. You are.

WALLACE:And I've got friends in all of 'em and I had a problem with, a couple years ago, with probating my brother's will in Clayton County. He'd done 1,000 wills, I guess, and in this occasion, he didn't get it witnessed properly. And so, it was -- and we couldn't probate the will. (laughs) And the witness that should have, that was typed in to be signed was an Afro-American that -- he just bought his business in Jonesboro, his law office. So, like, we're doing all of this, I could see how it happened. But later on, she balked at signing it ex post facto. She said I didn't sign it at the time and my niece said, "Well, you saw it. You witnessed it." So, she was having trouble. I said, "Let 00:23:00me talk to her." So, I talked to her on the phone and she was adamant about not signing it. So, I called up Gwen Reed. I said --

WALKER-HARPS:Right.

WALLACE:-- "Gwen," (laughs) Gwen Flowers , I said, "Gwen, I need some help from the brotherhood." (laughter) I said, "I don't want this woman up there to think I'm a white honky -- I want you to help me establish some bona fides. Will you ride up to Jonesboro with me and let's talk to this lady?" And she -- "I'd be glad to." We had a good time. She went up there and we came in and we talked. And I don't -- and my niece doesn't think we'd ever gotten anything out of if Gwen hadn't been there and I kind of feel the same way.

WALKER-HARPS:So, Gwen is one of the -- person who recommended your --

WALLACE:What?

WALKER-HARPS:Gwen is one of the persons who suggested --

WALLACE:Oh, did --

WALKER-HARPS:-- I talk to you, yeah.

WALLACE:Oh, did she?

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:Well, she's always been a good friend. But that was a great experience.

WALKER-HARPS:But you were a friend to her uncle, then her dad and whatever. So, you go way back --

WALLACE:Oh, yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- to the --

WALLACE:I do, I do.

WALKER-HARPS:-- twins, yeah.

WALLACE:And I represented 'em.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, yes.

WALLACE:I have -- my father represented Afro-Americans. There was --

WALKER-HARPS:Really?

WALLACE:-- never any reason not to.

WALKER-HARPS:Bob Smalley. Yeah, Bob Smalley was a jewel. He was --(overlapping dialogue)

WALLACE:Oh, yeah. Bob was. He was not only -- he was fearless but he was intellectual and a tremendous mind. And, yeah, he did a lot in this community.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, he really did.

WALLACE:And he had a lot of respect from everybody.

WALKER-HARPS:We loved him.

WALLACE:Would listen to Bob and it's been a gradual thing but it's been a -- we have -- we benefited by a lot of the things that have gone on. When I came along, the Afro-Americans lived in just terrible living conditions. They didn't have -- the maid that we had that I loved dearly that helped raise my children, she lived on the corner of 9th and is it Oak Alley through there, 00:24:00where the --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, there is an Oak Street that goes through there --

WALLACE:Oak Street --

WALKER-HARPS:-- down (overlapping dialogue)

WALLACE:-- right there. Mr. McWilliams, the former sheriff, had some --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:-- slum properties --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, yes.

WALLACE:-- right there. And she lived there and she didn't have hot water.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:She had running water but she didn't have any hot water and was raising her family there. And we were right -- not hardly a mile away with all of the comforts of home, really. But we loved her and we took her on trips with us and -- but then, things started getting better. I think there was some economic breakthrough for the Afro-Americans that they could get, finally, some paying jobs that they could afford to have better housing and she and her husband, he drove a cab, they moved out onto 2nd Street and had a nice house out 00:25:00there. And they -- you began to see improvement in the neighborhoods and these -- so, these -- you would not -- I don't know how long you've lived in Griffin but you would not believe how just terrible -- Jewel, you know!

WALKER-HARPS:I know. Edgewood and Boyd Row and --

WALLACE:Boyds Row was where --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:-- Mattie May lived --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, yes.

WALLACE:-- right off the street. That was bad.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:And -- but --

WALKER-HARPS:Once jobs opened up at the telephone company -- opened up for those kids who were graduating from high school, that period, got a chance to work at the telephone company. So, they had an outlet over there and they were always -- I just happen to remember the telephone company -- those who were coming out of school.

WALLACE:Well, and maybe there was more integration within the textile community. I don't know that but they were always seeking employment and, you know, and maybe there was a little bit of integration there.

WALKER-HARPS:When they got to do something other than just do floors.

WALLACE:Yes.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, they --(overlapping)--

WALLACE:Yeah, I mean, that were paying something.

WALKER-HARPS:-- that did happen, yes.

WALLACE:Anyway, there were --

WALKER-HARPS:On the line.

WALLACE:-- it's like a slow tide rising but I have seen it rise for the benefit of my friends that now have really decent housing at -- for the most part. And they know -- I don't think there's any racial difference in what's available now in this community. There might be. Jewel might speak to that better than I can but it seems to me that anybody that wants to have a nice house and they've got an opportunity to work, they're going to have a nice house.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, not based on race. Housing is trouble but it's not based on race forever about --

WALLACE:Yeah, that's what I mean.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:That's what I feel. I mean, I --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, yeah.

WALLACE:-- don't know, I -- that's why I ask if you felt the same way.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:There's a -- the courts have been integrated. I ran into a lady, day before yesterday, I feel bad about this, at the grocery store and she said, "Mr. Wallace," said, "you know who I am." I didn't. She said -- I should 00:26:00have. She said, "Who was your favorite black policeman?" Well, I said, "I guess it would be the first one." And he said, "Well, that's right, Marvin." I said -- and then I knew who it was.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, okay.

WALLACE:It's Miss Barrow. It's Marvin Barrow's --

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, his wife, Annette --

WALLACE:-- his wife.

WALKER-HARPS:Okay.

WALLACE:Annette, yeah, I should've known her name. Anyway, had a nice convo but I did come up -- I called her Miss Barrow when we left. I didn't -- but I could not remember Marvin to save my life to begin with. But that -- he was the first one in the police force, in -- and these barriers that -- it took a lot of courage for the people that crossed the barriers and burst the ceilings --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:-- to do it. And I recommend this book to y'all if you haven't read it. Judge Tuttle, who was a federal judge during the integration. 00:27:00It's an excellent book and dissects the mind of the South. And it was about the Holmes -- Charlayne Hunter --

WALKER-HARPS:And Hamilton Holmes.

M:Hamilton Holmes.

WALLACE:And Hamilton Holmes. It's virtually the story of how they got admitted to the University of Georgia against all odds. And this judge, it is a -- it's just one of the most exciting books to read. Of course, maybe more from a lawyer standpoint to see how they were maneuvering and the writs that were being filed -- and between Macon and Athens and Atlanta and all of the maneuvering -- and this judge was standing so firm. Other judges, even on the federal bench in the South, they weren't doing anything about it. "Can't go to school? Oh, that's all right." This one said, "I'm going to enforce this."

WALKER-HARPS:Horace Ward and Donna Halliwell worked awfully hard.

WALLACE:Oh, I know!

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:Well, Horace Ward, I tried cases with him later on in Athens for the city of Atlanta when they were expanding the airport. I remember it was devoted -- he was really nice guy. But he tried to get in law school right at -- while I was in the Army, I guess.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:And they -- this is the story and I don't know whether it's true or not but they said, "Well, why aren't you in the Army? Aren't you subject to the draft at your age?" And he said, "Well, yeah," but said, "I've got a hernia." And they said, "Well, we'll fix that." (laughter) And they fixed that and he was drafted, went off to the Army. So, he -- Horace never got to the University of Georgia. But what -- he was a fine, fine lawyer and fine man. But these were -- facing those things at every level. And this country now, many people want to turn back to that. They want to have that power to say no and it's bad. 00:29:00It's bad. They have little things coming along that were observable. And the book, The Help, the story really turns around bathroom facilities --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, yes.

WALLACE:-- for the maids. And we faced that in my house when we lived on Taylor Street. There's one bathroom; everybody used it. When we moved out to Maple Drive, there were three bathrooms: two upstairs and the maid's bathroom downstairs in the basement. It was -- brand new bathroom but it was strictly a commode and strictly a lavatory. No refinement, no tile walls, anything like that. It was pure basic and you had to go down the steps to get there. And so, one of the maids did not, after Mattie May left, that was, like 00:30:00-- my mother came home and she heard a toilet flush. That maid was out of there.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:That's, you know, that's the way it was. Something that they did not mention in the book where we're talking about the help that the maids had to have to plan the meals and things like that -- and in those days, there were a lot of 'em that could not read and write and they had what is called a pictogram board. Now, you probably don't know what I'm talking about but it was a board that had pictures of coffee --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:-- tea and sugar and little pigs. And so, if you couldn't read or write and you were in the kitchen, you could peg in the picture of what was needed and that was what the board said, "What We Need," and you pegged in like that. 'Cause education was frowned on. And now, I think it's -- we try to promote it for everybody. I certainly think it's the good thing to do.

WALKER-HARPS:Well, yes, but you can see traces of it when we -- right now, we're getting this battle again about vouchers in housing -- WALLACE:Vouchers, oh, yeah, that's a whole --

WALKER-HARPS:And that's a, yeah, that's a --

WALLACE:-- 'nother thing to --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, yeah.

WALLACE:-- restore segregated school systems.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, yes.

WALLACE:And it has been, which was -- I think it's terrible. I'm a public school supporter and I always have been. But I can just see the drift apart, yeah. Went down to St. George's school. I'm proud of it that they're doing it but it was started, I think, to preserve a -- all-white sort of attitude. It's not as bad as Barnesville Academy, I -- that was purely thrown up in the face of -- to avoid integration and have the place for these people who go to school. Now, that had no pretense at academics at all (laughs) and thankfully, it closed. I'm trying to think of some other things I wanted to mention in my 00:32:00ramble about growing up here.

BRAMAN:Well, can I --

WALLACE:Yeah.

BRAMAN:-- ask a couple question, just --

__: I'm open.

BRAMAN:-- while you were on the whole public school, private school thing, there does seem to be an inordinate amount of private schools in the area. And did that happen in that period where you had Brown v Topeka, Kansas Board --

WALLACE:Yeah, that was the inception.

BRAMAN:That was the inception.

WALLACE:Yeah, that was the impetus for these things. And then, of course, it got an evangelical -- there's a segment of the politicians in this country that knew how to capture the hearts is go to the cross, get 'em that way. And I don't want to make a political speech but I'm just saying that's how -- they were smart enough to know what to do. We're not going to do it just on our own but if we can get the churches and if we can get the churches to then elect 00:33:00the school boards and elect the county commissions and that sort of thing, then we've got the power and that's what's happened. And these churches -- and a lot of 'em have good schools. Now, I don't -- I can't speak to St. George's Episcopal Church. I don't think it was it's -- that church is not evangelical by any means. So, I think they just wanted a private school. I mean, they had some in Atlanta that they wanted to emulate. But some of 'em, like Brookstone and some of these others, they're still outgrowths of the desire to be segregated. And if you see a graduation picture of some of these several schools around here, you won't see but one or two token Afro-Americans in it.

BRAMAN:Right, right.

WALLACE:And it -- that's, you know, Brown v Topeka, it started it all.

BRAMAN:Right.

WALLACE:And they'd rather give up -- they'd rather pay that extra -- they don't -- it's not so much -- it's they don't want other people to have it. They don't want to give to somebody that they feel like they don't deserve it or they're not worthy or why not be -- do it -- "Why are they calling on me?" -- that it's a desire to deny rather than establish something.

BRAMAN:So, is it -- same kind of zero sum game? If one area benefits then the other one has to lose? They don't --

WALLACE:Yeah. Well, in -- that's a principle of physics. For every action, there's an equal reaction, isn't that? -- I feel like that's what happened with Obama's election. There was a reaction to that. I don't think people saw it coming. (laughs)

BRAMAN:Right.

WALLACE:Just like we couldn't see Trump coming.

BRAMAN:Right.

WALLACE:But then, there's -- I think that was the reaction to --

WALKER-HARPS:But there's more often -- and we accept being more anti out there than we want to accept being out there, otherwise Trump wouldn't have gotten elected. But --

WALLACE:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- it's, yeah, there's still -- whole lot in the closet that --

WALLACE:A lot.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:A whole lot.

WALKER-HARPS:A lot in the closet.

WALLACE:And I have a group that I have breakfast every Tuesday morning. And this morning, I -- 12 of us. I would say that only two of us voted for Hillary Clinton. The other 10 voted for Trump, though they have admitted they find him a despicable person and they will admit that. I don't know what y'all feel but that's what's I --

WALKER-HARPS:Well, they will probably do it again --

WALLACE:And they'll vote again --

WALKER-HARPS:-- they'll vote the same way.

WALLACE:-- you're exactly right.

WALKER-HARPS:They will vote again the same way.

WALLACE:That's what's so sad!

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:That's what makes you feel like what has it all been worth? We tried to have a Democratic Party here.

WALKER-HARPS:I remember, yes.

WALLACE:We did and we asked some -- we just --

WALKER-HARPS:And your wife was an avid supporter.

WALLACE:Hmm?

WALKER-HARPS:Mickie was an active part.

WALLACE:Yeah, she was. She kept the books for a while and she was on the voting committee.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:She was the Democratic appointee of the voting committee and -- whatever that is.

WALKER-HARPS:That's just a good example that you should mention that, what is actually the feelings or -- when we look at what's happening with the voter registrar today, it is an outgrowth of just what we're talking about because there is no reason for the lack of acceptance by your other -- Marcel DeKirk, registrar. When you look at what has happened in the past -- and she came in, The only thing that could be a negative for her is the color of her skin.

WALLACE:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:It is not that she has not done the job. And when you find situations where -- and I don't-- a situation where people actually refused to work for her for no reason at all but wanting to do a good job. And we accept that and support it, then there is no other reason but racism.

WALLACE:Well, but those that -- opposing her will come up with these stories --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:-- like they're just pure out of fiction and tell on her.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes!

WALLACE:I mean, and they -- and I don't know because I'm not down there and I don't know what's going on but I know that they do -- her name is disparaged a lot.

WALKER-HARPS:A lot! A lot! And there's been no basis for it. Now, I could accept -- you tell me why and I can accept that.

WALLACE:I know, you --

WALKER-HARPS:But there's no --

WALLACE:-- know why.

WALKER-HARPS:Why is it okay for me not to want to accept an order from a black woman? Why would I imply that you lack common sense just because you're a black woman? So, there is evidence. And let me get back to your story 00:35:00not my story. But that's just an example of how, even today --

WALLACE:Sure!

WALKER-HARPS:-- they're still alive and well. And I don't know that we want to accept that. Your friends don't want to be called racist --

WALLACE:But they are.

WALKER-HARPS:-- but they are. (laughter) But they'll stand for -- they are!

WALLACE:They are! I tell 'em that!

WALKER-HARPS:They are! And I'm not even sure that they believe that they are.

WALLACE:They don't believe it --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:-- but they don't want --

WALKER-HARPS:They don't want --

WALLACE:-- they don't want to put their arms around you and hug and say it's all right, dear, we're okay. Everything's going to be all right. They don't -- they can't reach that point.

WALKER-HARPS:No, they can't do that.

WALLACE:Yeah, yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, boy. Now, tell us a little bit about the political side. How did we get to the point where we have --- or, as much diversity and what was it like prior to where we are now? I know I was a part -- well, I was 00:36:00in leadership at the time that we had that court case, Gary Reed and a few others actually signed. I did not sign but I was there. I was a part of it, the ruling where challenged, that large vote-in. And we went to second member districts and that really changed the complexion of the political system here.

WALLACE:Well, y'all might remember that the senate, this was a senate, state senate bill, somebody versus Sanders. I think he was the governor. To elect a senator, you had three counties and a district and you just rotated 'em. Fayette would elect one every two years and Spalding one every two years. And I think Ensenada? I don't remember the three counties but when you were not in that area, you didn't have any vote for the person that was elected. So, they 00:37:00brought this lawsuit and Bob Smalley was running then. He was a state senator and he was faced with that, losing his position because he didn't live in Fayette County. And Mr. Cooke sent me down to the federal court to pick up the decision, the tissue paper decision we call 'em of that ruling that said that was unconstitutional. You had to have one vote, one -- to elect whoever it was, that you can't diminish the votes by parceling 'em out to various candidates. That was big. But the big thing that realigned everything, Jewel, was the Civil Rights Act, the Johnson, under the Johnson era.

WALKER-HARPS:Nineteen sixty-four, yeah.

WALLACE:And he knew. He knew. They said, "You've lost the South," and we did, and everything almost immediately switched. The Democrats that -- heretofore, it had been a Democratic primary was tantamount to election. That 00:38:00word was used over and over and over again. If you won the primary, you won. The Republican Party was, well, who? Was Mister -- who am I trying to say, Jewel? Was head of the little, what little bit of the Republican Party we had here. Touchstone! Why didn't-- Mr. Touchstone.

WALKER-HARPS:Lon Touchstone.

WALLACE:Lon Touchstone. He had a few -- handful of largely Afro-American -- maybe Leila Fortune, Leila Bell and them --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:-- mixed up in it as the Republican Party, but not wanting anything. And then, the Civil Rights Act came in and everybody could see that it was changing times. So, all of the Republicans just (sucking sound) sucked up all of the strength of the races. And then somehow, I'm not so much about the local politics, but it's just still based on where you live now, isn't 00:39:00it, Jewel?

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, where you live now, really. Yes, where you live now because of the districts. Heretofore, it was you lived anywhere in the county and the county was racially divided by -- geographically. Not politically but geographically and that's why Judge -- I believe Judge Whalen was the judge that said you can't do any more annexation on the south side of town until you annex on the north side of town.

WALLACE:To keep a balance.

WALKER-HARPS:To keep a balance because the affluent people lived on the south side of town and they were, of course, all white. And as you annexed them, then you had -- you were not balanced in terms of political power.

WALLACE:Well, that's the problem and it's -- the same is true nationally, in gerrymandering, which I'm firmly opposed to.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:Then they'll draw these little districts and they come out with results that just --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, yeah.

WALLACE:-- are unheard of that -- when they redistrict these ways, but for the very reason to keep this political party -- this is a Republican stronghold here and this is a Democratic strong-- doesn't matter whether they fluctuate back and forth actually. And that's the way it is.

WALKER-HARPS:That's the way it is.

WALLACE:Now, I think there's some cracks in this -- the court system's observance of the validity of that. I'm hoping so, that that's a management of --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:-- election --

WALKER-HARPS:Well, we'll see.

WALLACE:-- outside the ballot box that shouldn't be done.

WALKER-HARPS:We'll see in a few weeks, a few months, rather, 'cause we're back at that process again.

WALLACE:I know.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. So, what, presently, looking at it and knowing where we came from, and what is your assessment today? Well, what do we need to do? Is there anything in your mind that we can do to --

WALLACE:Well, I'm hopeful.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, we are hopeful.

WALLACE:I'm optimistic. I believe that the more we stress that -- the Christian principle of love your neighbor as yourself, at every moment that you can, that you got to do that, that there's going to be some progress made. I'm worried about the fact that it's, you know, it's up and pushback and then up and pushback --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:-- and up and pushback and we're in the pushback mode right now because we've got leadership that believes in it.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:And so, we've got to overcome that but down in the districts, down here, I have -- I'm optimistic about the future. I wish I could think during my lifetime we would get to the point where you would not have to say, "I went to the doctor. It was a black doctor." Why do we have to

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, yeah, yes.

WALLACE:-- identify that? And we all do it!

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, yes.

WALLACE:We all do it!

WALKER-HARPS:We do it.

WALLACE:I went, you know, I went -- I had a high school teacher, she was black, too. You know, just add that, and like you need that reference. And we don't need that reference. We shouldn't need it, at any rate.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, we shouldn't.

WALLACE:I don't know. I've talked too much, I'm -- (laughter) I have --

WALKER-HARPS:No, you've been good. Got a question --

CAIN:Well, I'll still always have questions.

WALKER-HARPS:I know Art has questions.

ART CAIN:Just to -- for the record, you mentioned the biracial committee and that was hugely a reason why you didn't have any kind of violence during the --

WALLACE:Well, I claim so and Jewel agrees with me. She says that she thinks that it was --

WALKER-HARPS:Totally.

WALLACE:-- instrumental in keeping peace here in the community.

CAIN:How many people were on the committee?

WALLACE:Oh, I guess at times there was maybe 30, oh --

CAIN:Did you all collectively say, as a leadership group we're going to go out and advocate for the kind of integration where you wouldn't have problems?

WALLACE:Oh, yeah!

CAIN:How did that happen, I mean-- WALLACE:Oh, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. We had committees to go see the judge about being -- put black people on the jury list and we had committees to go to the --

WALKER-HARPS:They really facilitated --

WALLACE:-- one of the things -- and this is the thing that my wife just -- she was from Indiana, so she didn't know how to -- she wasn't raised right, (laughter). She, at the committee meeting, when we were discussing the grievances, mostly -- and that's what it was, 'cause white people, we didn't have any grievances, you know? We wanted to keep the peace but we had everything the way we wanted it but the others didn't. And that's what the committee was about, was to open up the lines of communication. And one of the things was at the hospital, the white people could have Mr. Wallace or Wallace 00:40:00on their nametag. Jewel would have Jewel, first name only. And they -- and that was offensive to 'em and that was one of the-- it's so minor-- they brought that up at one of the meetings, that we need to fix that. Well, that was easily fixed. (laughs) That could be done.

WALKER-HARPS:That was -- well, we just finalized a lady last week, who's story to tell, least they told about she was the head nurse but she was a head nurse for black folk. They only allowed her upstairs when they ran into trouble --

WALLACE:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- and they needed -- it was supposed to, holdup.

WALLACE:Yeah!

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, I'm --

WALLACE:I mean, I saw that.

WALKER-HARPS:-- yes.

WALLACE:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:And, no --

WALLACE:Portia's? --

WALKER-HARPS:-- they could not --

WALLACE:-- Portia --

WALKER-HARPS:-- yeah.

WALLACE:-- had a daughter that was a good friend of my daughter, Elizabeth.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes. Louise -- probably Portia Louise or might have been Marcia, I don't know what --

WALLACE:I don't know which one it was but I -- remember that was --

WALKER-HARPS:But --

WALLACE:At any rate, I saw that --

WALKER-HARPS:-- yes.

WALLACE:She was 94 years old.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:Very --

WALKER-HARPS:But she will --

WALLACE:-- well respected. But no --

WALKER-HARPS:Oh yes

WALLACE:-- she couldn't come --

WALKER-HARPS:No.

WALLACE:-- she couldn't do that.

WALKER-HARPS:She couldn't eat with them. She could do whatever but when it was time to eat, then they had to go to the place that --

WALLACE:But these things that some people look as so minor, well, they were not minor to a lot of people on either side. They were major. And a lot of it has been overcome and I don't see any way that's ever going to be pushed back in the bottle.

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, no, no.

WALLACE:And I don't think it will be, but --

WALKER-HARPS:No, no, that's --

WALLACE:-- and it can go forward from that. And once there is this experience, that's what I'm saying, just contact and understanding the platform that other people have, their agenda that we didn't know about. I thought it helped a lot that we could do that. I don't know whether -- and I think it helped them, too. I do. But it's still always them and us and it shouldn't be.

WALKER-HARPS:Who is currently living who was on that committee? Do you remember? 00:41:00Do you remember what -- do you know when it's --

WALLACE:God, I guess Walter Jones and I. I hadn't thought about that.

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, yes, I hadn't thought about Walter Jones because I've been trying to find somebody and all of the ones that I knew -- I knew Miss Fitzhugh and the others were--

WALLACE:All of 'em dead.

WALKER-HARPS:-- dead

WALLACE:Bob Crossfield, Bob Smalley.

WALKER-HARPS:They're all dead.

WALLACE:All -- the Reeds, all of them. My pastor, he's gone. I guess Jane, Bob's wife is dead. Mary Fitzhugh's husband, Fitzy, was a pediatrician. He's dead. He was on the comm-- I mean, I guess --

WALKER-HARPS:They all -- I can't think of anybody who's still alive.

WALLACE:I wish I had somebody that was more -- could represent the ambitions and the accomplishments of that committee that I can remember. But I do know it was important. To me, it was important --

WALKER-HARPS: Very much important

WALLACE:-- personally and I think it was important.

WALKER-HARPS:And even today, if you ask somebody in the black community how do you account for the smoothness or the lack of total chaos, you might say, they would point back to that biracial committee and the willingness to step out and not be hidden but to step out on -- some stage at that time.

WALLACE:I think it cost me something in my career, and -- political career. I think --

WALKER-HARPS:Probably so.

WALLACE:-- there was some resentment --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:-- among my peer group. But you got to put that aside.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, yes.

WALLACE:You do the right thing or try to do the right thing. I've never regretted, certainly. It was --

WALKER-HARPS:Well --

WALLACE:-- a great benefit to me.

WALKER-HARPS:-- that worked with you and it worked with your children. You passed that on to your children, whereas we had others, like your friends, and probably did not. So, this is one reason why we still have these little pockets.

WALLACE:You're right.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:You're exactly right.

WALKER-HARPS:See, you're -- I was well received back then, all the others that I knew, by your children, when they came to school we were well received by them. But then, there were others who came out of a household of hatred and you didn't get that same --(overlapping dialogue)--

WALLACE:Yeah, and there was more of them than us.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah!

WALLACE:Certainly (laughs)

WALKER-HARPS:Right.

WALLACE:-- that's the problem.

WALKER-HARPS:And very definitely.

WALLACE:Yeah, oh, and that's what I'm saying. I think it's gradually, maybe, the balance is swinging. I hope so.

WALKER-HARPS:Are there other questions?

JOHN CRUICKSHANK:It seems like that idea of doing the right thing runs in the family. (laughter) Is that the key? I mean --

WALLACE:I don't --

CRUICKSHANK:-- were you always like that as a child? Your mother had, apparently, had resentment toward African Americans. Did she, or --

WALLACE:Not resentment. It was not that. It was just this is the way it is.

CRUICKSHANK:Yeah.

WALLACE:It's just, as I say, it's like a fish swimming in the water. They don't know they're in water and that's (overlapping dialogue)

WALKER-HARPS:Well, it's just --

CRUICKSHANK:-- it's just the contact, the individuals that you happen to cross? That's where you got your values as a child --

WALLACE:Well, I would say --

CRUICKSHANK:-- to get that idea -- (overlapping dialogue)--

WALLACE:-- a lot of us was from trying to understand yourself as far as a Christiana and it just -- it should work in every religion, really. Love people!

CRUICKSHANK:So, there's a certain amount of personality involved, I suppose, is there? Just be willing to ask those -- to do that, the self-exploration, would you say, or? --

WALLACE:Well, you -- or, if you're like me -- absolute superficial person. So, (laughter) you're not introspective at all but there's a certain feeling that you got, what's right and what's wrong. And sometimes, your religious teaching has a great deal of bearing on it. Sometimes, the person's--

CRUICKSHANK:I'm just trying to understand what it is that set you apart from all the others who were racist and --

WALLACE:I wish I could have an answer to that. Probably a combination of things.

WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) were different and Jill Rapperly were different. You found pockets in rural areas, some rural areas where they were a lot different from the resentment and that line was not as rigid as it would be in -- for an example, I came from the country and it was a whole lot different for me when I got to Griffin. I guess you play with whoever lived --

WALLACE:Yeah!

WALKER-HARPS:-- in the -- yeah, you played with whoever you had around you. You ate and you shared with the people who were around you. You couldn't share with somebody who didn't, so you either were going to stand out there all by yourself or you had to become a part of your environment. And that's one of the things that happened, you -- that kind of put you on the same level and you did the same kind of work if you were earning a living. And that's just my situation but -- and even here, there were families like, like the Cummings and this smaller family who had a person that's working for them that they treated as parts of their family. And I happen to know that 'cause I lived with a lady who worked for the Cummings and the Smalleys.

WALLACE:Who was the track star, Wyoming Tyus?.

WALKER-HARPS:Tyus, yes.

WALLACE:Murry worked for the Smalleys for many years, you know? His --

WALKER-HARPS:Okay, yes.

WALLACE:-- this -- my mother, she had a yardman, Jeness Sparks that lived on Solomon Street that -- she would have sacrificed us before she would have sacrificed Jen as the yard man, 'cause --

WALKER-HARPS:There were good? --

WALLACE:But she still -- Jeness wouldn't come in and sit down at the table with us and eat a meal. That's -- and that --

WALKER-HARPS:'Cause that's the difference.

WALLACE:-- was just the -- she was not taught that way. It was just the way it was.

WALKER-HARPS:Submissive.

WALLACE:And you had to sort of break away from that. You're asking me that question and I don't know. I don't think I'm unique but I do know that I have tried since I was an adult by, you know, being 25 or 26, try to walk in the shoes of people that would -- that I would find the other people's conduct offensive and if I would, Jewel would. I have -- it took me a long time before I could correct my friends telling stories or making --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALLACE:-- references and using the N-word and I finally, within the last, really, 10 years, say, "Don't do that again (laughter) or I'm going to get up and walk out, man!" We went in -- my wife and I were with a friend, prominent Atlanta man, in Scotland. And he was just telling these jokes. I said, "Don't use that word again (laughs) or we're going to pick up and fly home." He said, "You're serious, aren't you?" And I said, "I am serious."

WALKER-HARPS:Just wouldn't let him push you out? of the group.

WALLACE:Yeah. (laughter) That's right.

WALKER-HARPS:Are there other questions?

CRUICKSHANK:Just one other thing I'm curious about, going back to the beginning of the interview. You're talking about getting an African American from drunk driving charges, I think. You're the one who got him off. How did you do that? (laughs)

WALLACE:Well, I don't know. I mean, it's -- (laughter) if I could have an answer to how -- why a jury does anything --

CRUICKSHANK:Oh.

WALLACE:-- after 80 years of -- 55 years of practice --

CRUICKSHANK:How did you build your case? I mean --

WALLACE:Well, it's --

CRUICKSHANK:-- against anyone?

WALLACE:Well, the question is -- remember this: the presumption is that you're not guilty and they had to -- and you cross-examine and you try to find holes in their testimony. And I did pride myself on that ability, to cross-examine, that you could just keep digging at 'em and hope that they'll trip up on something. And you don't know, some little thing will come back. I tried a case in Barnseville. This was during the height of the kindergarten molesting cases. This was about 15, 20 years ago. You remember that out in California, they had people convicted of saying that they were abusing these children, they were doing all these things to 'em? Well, it popped -- it was, like, hysteria. It popped up in Barnseville and this guy was charged. He had 16 counts. His 00:44:00daughter ran a daycare center and I was hired to go down there and represent him. And I did and I did the best I could and I made one mistake, I thought. Can I tell this story? (laughs)

WALKER-HARPS:You can tell whatever you want to tell. (laughter) You can tell --

WALLACE:This --

WALKER-HARPS:-- whatever you want to tell.

WALLACE:(laughs) -- this little girl, she was just as cute as she could be, about five. And she was testifying against my client, Paw-Paw. And she said, "Well, he would -- he'd put me in his lap and he'd love me and put me in his lap." And I said, well, I -- take care of this. So, I got on the stand and I put her in my lap and I said, "Just like this? Is this what Paw-Paw did?" "Yeah, but he had something hard between his legs." I said, God, that was the 00:45:00worst -- you know, you're supposed to not ever get into that thing. Well, I came back and sat with my client. I said, "I'm sorry, I just blew the case." So, the -- we went on, tried the whole thing. The jury went out. They came back in and they said, "We have reached a verdict on one of the counts but we're hopelessly deadlocked on all the others." And I said, well, I knew what it was. Well, they found him not guilty on some other count. (laughs) Didn't pay any attention to that or didn't hear what was said or didn't know what I thought and mistried the rest of it. And he walked out of the courtroom. He said, "What do I do now?" I said, "Walk fast! (laughter) Get out of" -- and two weeks later, he 00:46:00was found -- the fatal victim of an accident in his barn where he had fallen on the combine and a stake had gotten driven somehow through his head. That ended that. Yeah, but you don't? (overlapping dialogue) I wish I could answer your question. I wish I'd know why you got him off and why you didn't or why they get --

WALKER-HARPS:You had an actual case of -- a replica of To Kill a Mockingbird.

CRUICKSHANK:Really?

WALLACE:Mm-hmm.

WALKER-HARPS:With the Copland case, would be a good parallel to what they did with the book and with the movie, To Kill a Mockingbird."

WALLACE:Well, again, I've got -- that's a project that I've got on my mind right now, Jewel, is Addison Finch might be lauded as a hero but he actually was a rather poor lawyer.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALLACE:He did not attack -- he did not present the case the way I would have done it. I mean, it was a lead pipe, he was going to lose it anyway. But he attacked on this rather awkward thing about being left-handed and right-handed. You remember the play?

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, I remember.

WALLACE:Well, what he should have done was attack the girl about her staging this thing by collecting the money, by sending her children off to the store downtown. See, never touched on that but just briefly but hammer on that. You made this whole thing possible by planning, by saving your money, by sending the children, and he could have verified that 'cause the children were not there, remember? They were down getting their ice cream cone. He could've verified that by the white proprietor of the ice cream store that the children were down there. They were never down there any other time. But see, he didn't 00:47:00go into all that. He went --

WALKER-HARPS:Write that book. (laughter) Write that book.

WALLACE:Y'all understand what I'm saying? There's a --

WALKER-HARPS:I have to say --

WALLACE:-- he didn't --

WALKER-HARPS:-- yes.

WALLACE:-- that is a --

WALKER-HARPS:It's probably (overlapping dialogue)

WALLACE:-- that -- he was going to lose it but at least he would show her -- I mean, she deserved to have some punishment, too, (laughs) for lying about --

WALKER-HARPS:Sign of the times, probably. He was afraid to do that.

WALLACE:Well, might have been. It might have been that but --

WALKER-HARPS:Or --

WALLACE:-- I had to -- when I was in the play and had the opportunity -- and I ask Norma, who runs that little theater -- you ought to go down there, Jewel, it's good.

WALKER-HARPS:I have been.

WALLACE:Have you been?

WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm, and I have been --

WALLACE:She runs -- I advise all of y'all to go see what she does down there.

WALKER-HARPS:I have been. And I've been trying to get in touch with her.

WALLACE:Yeah, she would be a good --

WALKER-HARPS:(overlapping dialogue)

WALLACE:-- one, too.

WALKER-HARPS:-- because she was referred to me but I have not been to -- she hasn't returned my call. I guess maybe I should call again. But I'm trying to reach her through somebody else.

WALLACE:Yeah, she's --

WALKER-HARPS:But yes, I've been.

WALLACE:Anyway, I had the -- I said, I ask her, I said, "Can I do a little informal" -- and I've had the girl down and I did cross-examine her, just playing when we were there at practice one day, and doing that. And I enjoyed it and the girl, she didn't know what we were doing?. (laughter) And I said, "This is what Atticus should have been doing rather than this other defense."

WALKER-HARPS:Yes. Well, what an interesting interview. Wonderful. Any more questions? If not, we're going to --(overlapping dialogue)--

WALLACE:Are you from Virginia or Charleston?

CRUICKSHANK:I'm from Canada.

WALLACE:Oh! (laughter) Well, you can't understand any of this, now. (laughter)

CRUICKSHANK:I saw To Kill A Mockingbird when I was about three years old, I think. (laughter)

WALLACE:That's a great story but it --

CRUICKSHANK:Yeah.

WALLACE:-- re-read it sometime. They've got somebody in Broad-- they've got a new production in Broadway --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes,

WALLACE:-- that I would really love to see.

WALKER-HARPS:I would love to see that, too, yes, great.

WALLACE:Am I excused? (laughter)

WALKER-HARPS:We want to express our appreciation to you. We thoroughly enjoyed -- we've not had that -- you filled a gap that we had not had, right, guys?

BRAMAN:Absolutely.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes. And we just appreciate you taking the time and your willingness to talk --

WALLACE:Oh, it's my pleasure! Really was, Jewel. I've done so much that's hurt my feelings with the other race in my lifetime. I feel like I'm -- every minute I can atone for some of it, I'm better, off alright.

WALKER-HARPS:Well, you did. Thank you so much, (laughter) thank you.

WALLACE:Oh, I enjoyed it.

WALKER-HARPS:Thank you, guys, everybody.

WALLACE:I'm glad this is once in a lifetime experience. (laughter)

WALKER-HARPS:Ah, well --

END OF AUDIO FILE