Interview with William Walker, May 24, 2018

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JOHN CRUICKSHANK:I just left that open so like, Art gets a chance to join us.

JEWEL WALKER-HARPS:Let's open it up.

CRUICKSHANK: You guys want to go ahead and --

BE-ATRICE CUNNINGHAM:Sure.

CRUICKSHANK:-- we'll start with my --

CRUICKSHANK:-- introducing everyone?

CUNNINGHAM:Sure.

CRUICKSHANK:It's Thursday, May the 24th, 2:10 PM. I'm John Cruickshank, librarian at University of Georgia, Griffin campus. And today, we're interviewing Mr. William Walker and our interviewers are --

CUNNINGHAM:Be-Atrice Cunningham with the University of Georgia, Griffin campus.

WALKER-HARPS:Jewel Walker-Harps, president of the local NAACP branch.

CRUICKSHANK:And myself, and Art will joining us in just a few minutes. So, let's begin, Mr. Walker, could just tell us a little bit about your background, where you -- where were you born and why did you come to Griffin?

WILLIAM WALKER:I was born in a little town called Wetumpka, Alabama. I came to 00:01:00Griffin in 1959, of course. I came here to -- I applied for and was hired to be a -- elementary school teacher, Admore Elementary. And the good thing about that: my wife was a teacher, also. So, at that time, they had a position for her and we both were hired to work, Admore Elementary School, in '59, '60 school year.

CUNNINGHAM:Well, can you tell us a little bit more about your early life? Like, you mentioned you were from Alabama. So, tell us a little bit more about that. What was early life like for you?

WALKER:(laughs) Growing up in a small town in Alabama, getting to school each day was really a -- not a problem but it was great distance because we had to walk.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER:But we were there. I always had perfect attendance.

CUNNINGHAM:(laughs) Okay. (laughter)

WALKER:I did. And I can't remember very well, and some of you might remember, walking to school with the school bus passing me with white kids on it.

CRUICKSHANK:Mm-hmm.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER:Many times, they'd throw something off after you, just dodge and keep going to school. (laughs) And we were fortunate. I had some caring teachers. I didn't realize how caring they were until I got to college, really, on all these 12 years. And I got to college and same things start coming up that I knew that other kids didn't know. So, I was happy, of my -- especially the lady who taught us English and history. So, my life was really a good life, really. I had a good life growing up. Didn't have much. When I say didn't have much, I 00:02:00always had what I needed.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER:Parents -- my mother was there -- father was not there at the time -- provided for me. And I got along quite well. I -- happy. I was a happy kid. There was never a time when I was just completely unhappy. We had -- of course, the church was in my life all the time.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER:All the time. My mother was dragging me to church every day. (laughter) So, I had that in my life and I grew up with that and that has followed me here. So, the same thing happened to me. I guess I carried my children to church in the same way (laughs) that I was carried to church and I think it's made an impact on their life. Great impact on their life. So, I was a happy kid. 00:03:00I don't have anything to complain about. We were -- naturally, there were -- whites were here and the blacks were here but we got along quite well, I thought. You understood that there were lines over here you did not cross and if you did there was a problem. So, we just got along quite well. My life was -- I had a full life. I can't look back and say I wish this had happened. Now, yeah, I wish we had not been segregated. Yeah, I wish we had not -- but through it all, it was okay.

CUNNINGHAM:Well, it sounds like your mother started you off on the right path --

WALKER:Oh, yeah.

CUNNINGHAM:-- especially starting you out in church.

WALKER:Yeah.

CUNNINGHAM:Did she tell you anything about what life was like for her growing up?

WALKER:My grandmother talked about it a lot. She didn't -- talked about it. Somehow things were just not to her liking at all. (laughs) Her life was not such as mine that she could look back and say, "I'm happy I'm where I am now." She was born in, oh, in Tuskegee, Alabama, I believe. And they had moved to this other little town, Wetumpka, where we are now, where we were then. And I don't think it went well for her there. But for me, like I say, I grew up as a happy kid. (laughs) Did quite well in school.

WALKER-HARPS:Your principal, when you came to Moore was Mr. Banks, right?

WALKER:L.L. Banks.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, was he sort of a unique person? I remember him vaguely.

WALKER:Yeah, he was unique. (laughter) Very unique. He was -- well, quite --

WALKER-HARPS: Quite a character(laughs)

WALKER:-- an educator, I think. He was a fine fellow. But, I mean, he wanted to make sure that you were doing the job that you needed to do in your classroom. And we did, as best we could. Starting out with, well, we had more than 30 kids in the classroom and that's a lot to deal with. And we did not have special ed. as you have it today. We had some kids and I had a couple of kids, two or three in my room, who should have been in special classes. So, I had to try to teach, you know, from all angles. I had to teach them as well as I had to teach the kids who were fast learners. And I did have some fast learners in that class.

CUNNINGHAM:Can you tell us about some of the other elementary schools that existed in Griffin around that time?

WALKER:Well, there were -- Annie Shockley and Cora Nimmons and Atkinson.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER:But I don't -- I knew the principals but I'm not sure, you know, what was going on in that school, in their schools at that time.

WALKER-HARPS:The schools went according to the communities, is that how it was? I don't remember. Students who lived in the --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- in the Cavencook area attended Moore and those who lived on south side went to Annie Shockley or Cora Nimmons, whichever.

WALKER:Right, and those who -- Atkinson, lived -- those kids from the project area came across to that school.

WALKER-HARPS:Atkinson was one of the last schools, well, last of the elementary 00:05:00schools to be established, or was it?

WALKER:Yeah, it was, yeah, last.

WALKER-HARPS:Well, I thought it was Mrs. Atkinson -- it was named Atkinson Elementary School. And often, you hear that name. It was --

WALKER:She was the wife of a black doctor we had in this town, B.H. Atkinson, who was the, well, the dentist, really. And I understand she was quite prominent in, you know, in pushing the education of children.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER:In fact, she was at Moore and she died. She was the person who passed away that my wife was able to get a job --

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay.

WALKER:-- at Moore, in her memory.

WALKER-HARPS:Okay.

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Now, there was a group, I understand, who was responsible for giving -- having milk in the schools for black children, am I right? Was that the --

WALKER:Civic Improvement League.

WALKER-HARPS:-- Civic, okay, the Civic Improvement League.

WALKER:It's the one that we have now, the Civic Improvement League.

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay, okay.

WALKER:They did -- that was one of the things they did. They made sure that the kids had the milk in school each day.

CUNNINGHAM:Can you tell us a little bit more about your career path? What did you do after leaving Moore Elementary?

WALKER:After I left Moore, I went to -- two years, I went to the high school. And there, after that, I was select-- either selected, whatever, principal of the newly formed junior high school. There had not been a junior high school for black kids in this town. We had been one through seven and eight through 12.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER:So, we -- I started, really, the seven and eighth grades, well, junior high school for black kids in this county.

WALKER-HARPS:Prior to that, you were at what we know as Fairmont.

WALKER:Mm-hmm, I was at Fairmont High until I moved or until I was appointed principal of that school and we got it started. In fact, if you remember, Jewel, we started of the middle of the year.

WALKER-HARPS:The end of -- middle of the year, yeah.

WALKER:Started in --

WALKER-HARPS:We did, in the middle of the year.

WALKER:Started in January, opened that and can -- you can imagine what a scramble that was, to build schedules and get things going. We didn't have all the stuff we needed, so we had to form a PTA right away and that PTA was really formed to raise money, really. And we did.

CUNNINGHAM:Well, can you expound on that? Can you tell us -- would you say that you didn't really have what you needed? Tell us more about that. What didn't you have that you felt like you needed at that point?

WALKER:We didn't have physical ed. equipment.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER:We didn't have -- we wanted music in the school. We didn't have a piano, so we had to get the piano. That was -- I don't know, some other, smaller items that were for reading, where we finally got a control -- readers. But there were a number of things that system just did not provide us with at that time. And we were determined to have it, so we did. So, we raised money, sold 00:06:00candy, and whatever. And --

WALKER-HARPS:(unintelligible) customers of it, (laughter) and McHale, was it H. McHale that came weekly?

WALKER:Yeah, candy.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALKER:And that (their people really did a good -- the PTA, those who were in the -- who -- and Joy, Ms. Etta Johns, if you remember --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALKER:-- Ms. Barbara Alexander --

WALKER-HARPS: -- strong parents--

WALKER:-- yeah, Barbara Alexander was strong in that effort, helping us raise money, and we got enough for the piano.

WALKER-HARPS:Okay, Art Cain is just joining us here now.

WALKER:Okay.

ART CAIN:Should I sit here or --

WALKER-HARPS:I guess now wherever.

CAIN:Oh, how are you?

WALKER:Hey, how are you?

CAIN:Pleasure meeting you.

WALKER:Yeah, a pleasure meeting you.

CAIN:Are we live?

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, we are.

CAIN:I'm sorry. (laughter)

CUNNINGHAM:It's okay.

WALKER-HARPS:I may have to ask you to move if it turns out we can't hear you well enough.

CUNNINGHAM:Well, we --

WALKER-HARPS:I think you're okay where are you are.

CAIN:Okay.

WALKER:Who me?

WALKER-HARPS:So, let's go ahead and try it out.

CAIN:Oh, no, the wire.

WALKER:Oh, over here? Okay.

WALKER-HARPS:Much of our success could be contributed to our -- to parents. Dorothy McKinnon, Barbara Alexander, Belle Paron, and there were others whose names I cannot remember now but who worked --

WALKER:Don't remember all the names.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes, who worked awfully hard to --

WALKER:But they were instrumental in getting us going in a new school, a new endeavor. Really, we had not had a junior high school before.

CUNNINGHAM:So, tell us about -- once you moved on from the junior high school and moved on to Fairmont, is that correct?

WALKER:No, no. No, no, I was at junior high after Fairmont.

CUNNINGHAM:After Fairmont, okay.

WALKER:After Fairmont, yes.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER-HARPS:Fairmont replaced the vocational high school for African Americans, right?

WALKER:Fairmont, yeah. It did. But we were there for the period from, what, from seven -- from '61 until '70, when the schools were -- when the desegregation -- (when the?) schools were desegregated in this county. You know, along the way, we were -- during this time, they start swapping teachers to -- some teachers, some black teachers were chosen to go and work in -- at white school and that had not been the case before and we had some white teachers coming to work in the black schools --

CUNNINGHAM:Oh!

WALKER:-- which had not been the case before. And we got along well with that, of course. I had -- they gave -- I had one gentleman who was from Pakistan and --

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER:-- he could not stay because the kid -- this -- I could not -- we couldn't get the kids to understand him, really. I thought he was a superior math teacher but they did-- I don't know. They didn't understand him and I guess they -- I could not make them understand him. Some of these kids, they, as you might understand, were kids who had not had experiences, broad experiences, that would allow them to do that because we had to work hard to -- one of our goals was to take them places. Some kids had never been to Atlanta.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER:Many of them had never been to Atlanta, never been to Stone Mountain. I remember carrying some kid to the Cyclorama one time and, oh, that was exciting to them. So, all of these things we did at, you know, in that time period from --

WALKER-HARPS:And forced teachers to stretch beyond what they were comfortable with.

WALKER:Oh, yeah. Many did.

WALKER-HARPS:Therefore -- yes. Yeah, we were -- if the teachers were not comfortable -- although you had to learn it. You had to start it, so you had to be able to share (laughter) your experiences with the children. If your experiences were very limited, then you had to expose yourself to what you did know --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- to bring back to give --

WALKER:Yeah, we --

WALKER-HARPS:-- to educate our children.

WALKER:-- we made a great effort to expose them to as much as we could each year, the two years we had them.

CUNNINGHAM:Well, what other kind of challenges did you face when bringing in teachers from different backgrounds to work with these children? Did the children have any opposition?

WALKER:No, but not -- most of the teachers that we had at that school -- it's, like, all -- except the two white teachers, I believe, that I had were teachers who had graduated from historically black universities as colleges. So, they had, they understood the experiences that some of the, you 00:07:00know, these children -- they knew that they had not had the same environmental (projection?) that some other kids have had. They have not had the magazines and all this in their house. They understood that. So, we tried to make sure that they were able to read, read magazines or whatever and do other things that would bring them into the mainstream. We worked hard at that.

CUNNINGHAM:But as far as the white teachers that came in, did they encounter any challenges working with the students?

WALKER:You know, they -- the two that I had worked quite well.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

WALKER-HARPS:Especially the lady.

CUNNINGHAM:The lady worked quite well, she did. They worked quite well with the kids, they did. They did a wonderful job. I had no problem with that. The only problem I had was, you know, as I said, with the guy that we had from Pakistan. He had a problem. They had problems understanding him. That was 00:08:00the problem with him.

WALKER-HARPS:We had what we call visiting teachers. What -- did you not have visiting teach-- what was Miss (McLeary?)?

WALKER:I don't know what she was. (laughs)

WALKER-HARPS:Or what, was she not, she was not in the classroom --

WALKER:No.

WALKER-HARPS:-- was she -- was in the --

WALKER:No.

WALKER-HARPS:-- she was often in the schools.

WALKER:Yeah, she was often in the schools, but --

WALKER-HARPS:She was often in the schools.

WALKER:-- I think she had -- she was a product of early -- I don't remember what her position was but it wasn't --

WALKER-HARPS:Something every day --

WALKER:It wasn't something that --

WALKER-HARPS:-- of something that related --

WALKER:-- related to what we were doing.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, but it wasn't --

WALKER:-- but it was --

WALKER-HARPS:-- related. She was --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- sort of eyes and ears --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- in the black schools.

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. (laughter) Yeah, so, then she really was. And tell us a little bit about the integration process.

WALKER:Well --

WALKER-HARPS:I know you moved --

WALKER:Well --

WALKER-HARPS:-- to unit two.

WALKER:-- it went, well, it went well. I said when we -- what happened when -- in the late '60s, when it was obvious that we were going to desegregate these schools in Griffin, we had conservator from the University of Georgia -- two, I believe, and I don't remember their names now -- to come. And we had meetings with the black and white principals and counselors. And we just -- we had great discussions there as to what should happen and how we could do it. The big thing that happened, you know, for -- they retained the school colors, Griffin High. And the high -- and the football team became the Bears. So, you know, this -- all these little things were worked out before we integrated and 00:09:00then we desegregated in '70. Number of things were --

CAIN:I've got an integration question. You had two consultants come over from the University of Georgia and they sit down with folks from the African American school and --

WALKER:And --

CAIN:-- and the white school.

WALKER:Right.

CAIN:There were decisions like who were the people who were going to be in the various leadership positions when one school -- when some schools were going to close and you were going to merge into other schools.

WALKER:Right.

CAIN:How did all that get reconciled?

WALKER:We did it in those meetings. We decided -- they decided who would be the football coach. The guy was at the high school with -- remained the, you know the head football coach, that -- the guy who was principal of Fairmont High School, Mr. Daniels, would become an instructional supervisor. And went --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALKER:-- to, we -- oh, and let me say this: what we did, too, talking about those discussion, we decided that we would have seven, eight, and nine in separate schools. And so, I was chosen to be a principal of the eighth grade school and Daniels went to the high school. So, all of us who were in leadership positions, blacks, were moved into other leadership positions.

WALKER-HARPS:What was the story behind Johnny Goodrum?

WALKER:Johnny was the track coach.

WALKER-HARPS:Track coach.

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Rather than being given the job as, what, a principal?

WALKER:He was not princ-- he was the track coach.

WALKER-HARPS:Okay.

WALKER:He was not -- Johnny was the track coach and he remained --

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, but he was not --

WALKER:-- the track coach.

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, okay.

CAIN:How long were the discussions? Do you remember? How long, when you sit down and tried to work through that -- 'cause I would guess that would be some -- not necessarily heated questions but a lot going back and forth.

WALKER:Oh, God, it was heated! I remember one day -- (laughter) and they would last more than half day sometimes. (laughter) Funny thing, one lady said, this was a white lady said to me, she said, "Why" -- asked me and said, "Oh, y'all, all y'all got mustaches?" (laughter) She says -- and so, that was funny and that kind of (laughs) broke everything. So, we all had a big laugh out of that and we went on. But we -- it took all day -- not all day but, you know, hours. We would decide this would happen here, this would happen here, and what, 00:11:00you know, what would happen.

CUNNINGHAM:Okay.

CAIN:So, as you all kind of finalized some of those decisions and you started to make the transition from what things were and what they were going to be once integrated, there were things like bus routes and, you know, how kids are gonna --

WALKER:Yeah.

CAIN:-- go from one neighborhood to the next neighborhood.

WALKER:Then they --

CAIN:Schools, what -- you know, schools that were going to be neighborhood schools, all those kinds of things had to be meted out.

WALKER:Yeah, and it was.

CAIN:-- about family history? You know, your parents, grandparents, all those kinds of things -- because this is something that's going to be archived and it'll be something that will be available to people 100, 200 years 00:12:00from now. And they want to know about what you know about the 20th century, all the years you spent in the 20th century, if you had parents and grandparents who spent time in the 19th century, they'd like to know, I think, a little bit about what you heard about that. And so, if I am not inserting myself too much, I just want to --

WALKER:Well --

CAIN:-- you know, see if you can speak to some of that.

WALKER:-- well, I'd say that I was born in a little town, Wetumpka, Alabama, just outside of Montgomery. I was raised, I don't know if I said earlier, by a mother and grandmother who were pretty strict people, believe -- not educated people but believed in education. Pushed me along a great deal. And I read -- some of you probably don't know about this -- a paper called The 00:13:00Pittsburgh Courier. You might have --

WALKER-HARPS: -- I have heard--

WALKER:-- heard about that. But that was a black -- and Chicago Defender. But in my early years, I had to read that paper. Now, I didn't read it every day but I had to hold it up as if (laughter) I was reading, so -- and then, of course, you had -- and, you know, in that process, you'll read some. And so, that was my beginning: school, church, really. I told them early I was dragged out to church every day, I thought. Yeah, school every day. I had perfect attendance, rain or snow. I'd watch the white kids riding by in the school bus (laughs) but I went on, never stopped. And so, it was a good life. My mother worked at the school cafeteria. So, we, many times, had a lot of cheese. (laughs) She'd 00:14:00bring some cheese or what -- that was good cheese, too! (laughter)

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, yeah.

WALKER:And so, we had plenty to eat and my, you know, clothing. I was well kept. You know, you just -- I couldn't ask for better under the conditions, under what she had. I just -- I was kept up to date. She made sure that -- just reading the paper, knowing what was in those two papers made a big difference in my life and in her life, too.

CAIN:What high school'd you go to?

WALKER:What?

CAIN:What high school?

WALKER:It was called Elmore County Training School -- was what it was called at that time. Elmore County Training School.

WALKER-HARPS:And there was a reason why they call -- training school, right? Was --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- there something about the curriculum that entitled it to be a training school --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- that was different?

WALKER:Well, they -- it was started that more -- that, you know, the academic portion was early on, I think, in the years. I don't know this, that it was surmised that we didn't, you know, we didn't need the readin', writin', and arithmetic. We needed to be taught something with our hands. So, they called 'em all training schools. A lot in Alabama. Almost all the black schools were -- in all the small towns were training schools -- is what they called --

WALKER-HARPS:And would you assume that our first High School was vocational for the same reason?

WALKER:Probably.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALKER:Probably. But that was my life, but I -- and it was a good life, really. It --

CAIN:Did you have brothers and sisters?

WALKER:No, just me.

CAIN:Just you.

WALKER:Just me. Just me. Just me, my mom, and the newspaper (laughter) and the Bible. (laughter)

CAIN:Then you matriculated on to college.

WALKER:Yeah.

CAIN:At?

WALKER:Alabama State.

CAIN:Alabama State. Just to insert myself in it just a second: my wife's parents went to Alabama State.

WALKER:Yeah?

CAIN:Yeah, so they are -- you all have that in common. What made you choose Alabama State and what was your --

WALKER:Well, it was close to home, as I said. You know, with the little -- Wetumpka, just 15, 20 miles up the road from Montgomery. So, that's why we chose it. And we had had occasion to go to Montgomery, doing the things that -- you know, at that time, there was a great rivalry between Tuskegee and Alabama State. Turkey Day Classic. You might have heard of that.

CAIN:Oh, absolutely. (laughter)

WALKER:And so, we --

CAIN:Still exists today.

WALKER:-- we got a chance to go to the big parade occasionally. So, that's why -- one of the reasons I wanted to go to Alabama State.

WALKER-HARPS:Talking about parades, talk a little bit about Fairmont and Kelsa and the parades and the football team and the band for whatever when we were still--

WALKER:Oh.

WALKER-HARPS:-- segregated.

WALKER:Oh, yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:We didn't miss anything being segregated. We had our own little fun.

WALKER:They had a -- but we had band. Mr. Tucker had the band and they played all -- he called it tootin' all the time. And we used to go -- (laughter) and if you remember, you know where Fairmont High School is now?

WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm.

WALKER:They used to -- on Friday nights, one of the major attractions in Griffin was for that band to -- they would march from the school to the stadium. And boy, everybody's on the street just (laughs) -- it was a big deal in Griffin, Georgia. Big deal for Mr. Tucker and his band to march up Full 00:17:00Street down to the stadium.

WALKER-HARPS:And Mr. Tucker was a sort of unique man, too.

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Very gentlemanly. Very, very gentlemanly --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- I'd say, yeah.

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALKER:He was gentlemanly.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, he's --

WALKER:But that really should be something that should be said in all of this, that the Fairmont High School band -- and how it marched from -- how it went from the high school to the stadium on football nights that they had a football game and what it did for the city, 'cause black folks lined up just to see the band go by. For years that happened. And then, we went onto -- we talked earlier about the junior high school, then, finally it was the day that we had to integrate and we did. And you know, that went better than what a lot 00:18:00of people thought. The first day of school was really a good day of school. I had one gentleman who came and told me his kid couldn't go to school, you know, with the, you know, what kids. And I said, "Well, we only have one eighth grade, mister." (laughs) So, wasn't nothing he could do but go away. But he came back the next day and brought his son. (laughter) Everything -- it was funny with him. There we were in the hall, me, a black man, the first day, talking to a guy -- I mean, he had a gun, come to think about it. He said, "My son cannot go to school with niggers!" I said, "Well, (laughs) I don't know where he's going because this is the only school we have, only eighth grade we have." 00:19:00And so, he mumbled and mumbled and went on, told his boy, "Come on!" And when he came back the next day, I heard about it. I was in the office and I heard him talking to the secretary and I didn't go out. (laughs) I thought, to myself, oh, yeah, you had to come back. And so, things went well there. We had several days -- trucks to come through with a Confederate flag, like, Confederate flags on the back. But it never -- they never stopped and I never thought to call the police, anything, because they would just ride through the parking lot and then they would leave, with the flags, you know, on the back of the truck. I don't know what they were trying to say. I do know what they were trying to say but they never did bother us.

WALKER-HARPS:What was the idea? Do you know? Or was it just the consensus of the group to allow a no choice kind of situation? Because, well, you're saying there was only one eighth grade, one seventh grade --

WALKER:We did that in those discussions --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALKER:-- that's what we did.

WALKER-HARPS:So, yeah --

WALKER:That was deci--

WALKER-HARPS:-- was that a rough -- approved? Was that very difficult to come to? Okay.

WALKER:No, it wasn't.

WALKER-HARPS:Okay.

WALKER:After we discussed it, you know, a good while, everyone agreed, well, now, that will -- we'll solve one problem --

WALKER-HARPS:That's right.

WALKER:-- with that. That will solve the problem.

WALKER-HARPS:Wouldn't have a choice.

WALKER:But seven, eighth, and ninth graders, that'll solve a problem. And so, we did. Seven, eighth, and ninth graders, in different buildings. And so, it went well. I had some teachers who were seemingly a little concerned the first year. But, you know, they finally got, you know, came aboard. Everything went well. The first year I was there, in February, at that time, you know, we were having black history weeks -- or months, rather. So, I ask a white teacher 00:21:00to be in charge of Black History Week and she did. You know, Miss Hilgo.

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, yes.

WALKER:So, you know, all these kinds of things just made -- you know, we tried to -- I tried to look for the obvious way to make things go well. And it did, it went quite well for us at the junior high school, at eighth grade.

WALKER-HARPS:But I thought that leadership, and this is personal, too, that leadership in the schools, the school that I went to when I left Kelsey, they went over backwards to make sure -- I mean, it was not just a normal thing but people went out of their way to make it work, to make you feel comfortable. Things that they would not ordinarily have done --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- they did to be supportive and to make us feel comfortable. Well, just a couple of us there but they did that. I guess nobody wanted to be the school that had the problems, had the issues.

WALKER:Had the problems.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, had the issues.

WALKER:Well, yeah, we didn't. I was -- you know, all through this, the things went well in the school system. All during this time, we had, what, we had black policemen being the -- you know, the city choosing black policemen, which I had -- that happened. We had the park integrate -- desegregated. That was, you know, that was a big deal. And one funny story on that is that one of the commissioners made a big speech one night about blacks and whites swimming together and that he'd have, you know, sand put in it. And he did! (laughs)

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, he did.

WALKER:And the swimming pool at the park was covered. And we had -- there was a swimming pool at the recreation -- the black recreation center and doggone if he didn't put sand in that one, too. (laughs) So, we had that going on. But nevertheless, we continued. Then, we got together, there was a group that got together to raise money to build a swimming pool. Public. And so, you know, we got the one we got out there now.

CAIN:Seems like there was more hysteria up -- you want to use that term -- on the front end about what was to come versus once you got into integration, the people tried to make it work.

WALKER:Yeah.

CAIN:And each side didn't feel as -- you know, they got comfortable with each other. People started to get --

WALKER:Yeah.

CAIN:-- comfortable with each other.

WALKER:Yeah, we did. And, I don't know, we had a lot of people who just tried to make it work. You know, we always had the other side, those who didn't. But we had a lot of people who tried to make it work and things went well in time because we had those few who worked so hard to make it work.

CAIN:You mentioned one thing, though, you -- the gentleman who said, "I'm not going to bring my child to the eighth grade." I just wondered if you have a sense of the impact it had on the growth of private school education in the area, that when they integrated --

WALKER:I think it -- yeah, had great impact. It wasn't -- in 1970, there was this certain spurt of private schools in -- Christian schools. Churches all over Griffin. Not all over Griffin, I take that -- I don't say everybody. But a number of churches in Griffin started private schools in the 00:23:00early '70s.

WALKER-HARPS:But in spite of the turmoil, well, the lack of a great deal of turmoil during the integration period, before that time, we did not consider ourselves much deprived, very deprived when we were at Fairmont.

WALKER:No.

WALKER-HARPS:No. We know that we didn't have comparable materials and resources, what have you. But our accomplishments were such that they are -- some of 'em are even nationally known today.

CRUICKSHANK:Yeah.

WALKER:But you have a picture of that food, not food -- Foodtown, yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, oh, okay.

WALKER:But you had, though, a big sign said --

WALKER-HARPS:Okay.

WALKER:-- "Nigger go home."

CUNNINGHAM:Oh!

WALKER-HARPS:Okay, I'll look through -- I'll look at the picture had -- see if they got it, yeah.

WALKER:That should be there somewhere. I mean, just --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALKER:-- for people to see what happened, how you try and make money and you turning people away.

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, yeah, you were here when the (McLindon?) incident, whatever --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- going on downtown.

WALKER:Mm-hmm.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. Gosh.

CAIN:Do we have an account of that? I don't recall that.

WALKER:There's got to be an account somewhere of --

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, probably downtown, I'm sure, just as the Griffin Daily News has accounts for us, they would have accounts for that period, too.

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:May have to go to courthouse, though, but they would have --

WALKER:Yeah, I'm sure --

WALKER-HARPS:-- there would be accounts. There would be news accounts, yeah.

WALKER:-- you can find that, you --

WALKER-HARPS:There would be accounts on that.

WALKER:-- if there -- McLindon and that would be good to somehow have --

WALKER-HARPS:Have and -- yeah.

WALKER:-- with this. Now --

WALKER-HARPS:Now, do y'all have a picture of the old Kelsey -- of the building that was -- where the Mount Zion parking lot is?

WALKER:Mm-mm.

WALKER-HARPS:Mm-mm.

WALKER:Yeah, somebody does, though. I'll try to find that right now --

WALKER-HARPS:Okay, yeah, because what we're calling Kelsey now is not the original --

WALKER:No.

WALKER-HARPS:-- spot, site for Kelsey.

WALKER:No.

WALKER-HARPS:What we're operating now --

WALKER:No.

WALKER-HARPS:-- we called it Kelsey, that was not the original site.

WALKER:No.

WALKER-HARPS:But Kelsey, the original site was across the street from the Coca-Cola plant --

WALKER:Right.

WALKER-HARPS:(inaudible) high school where there's no sign of it now and just a parking lot. But that was -- Joanne Hennessey referenced that in her interview.

CAIN:It's -- different location.

WALKER-HARPS:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

CAIN:Okay. Would either one of you be comfortable talking about the incidents you mentioned?

WALKER:Hmm?

CAIN:Would either one of you be comfortable talking more about the incidents you mentioned?

WALKER-HARPS:The McLindon -- the --

WALKER:Oh.

WALKER-HARPS:-- sit-ins that would have been at the McLindon --

WALKER:Oh, whatever --

WALKER-HARPS:-- the store and the grocery stores and what have you. We'll probably try to bring in somebody who was a part -- who actually worked at -- I believe (Sherry Beher?) worked with --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- was one of the persons who worked there.

WALKER:Worked there.

WALKER-HARPS:Worked there. We'll try to bring in somebody who actually --

CAIN:Do you know what year it was?

WALKER:I can't -- now, that's what I was trying to remember, what year that was, though.

WALKER-HARPS:I don't know. It would -- had to have been --

WALKER:It --

WALKER-HARPS:-- around the -- '61 --

WALKER:It was in the early '60s.

WALKER-HARPS:-- or two.

WALKER:I just thought that was funny to -- that appeared -- a, you know, grocery store.

WALKER-HARPS:There was an element, even though the schools were running smooth, pretty smoothly on the surface, you still had the undercurrent.

WALKER:Yeah, everything was pretty -- but through it all, I think we got through 00:24:00it a little better than most places, which is --

WALKER-HARPS:What interests me most, not -- the positive side of life. We didn't really know just how bad we were, how bad off we were. We were doing fine. I mean, we were happy, (laughter) we were successful, and you -- all you need to do now is to look at the records and see the children who came through Fairmont to see that they have become or they have made a success of their lives, academically and/or sports-wise.

WALKER:Yeah, yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:So, the odds were out there but the commitment on the part of our teachers really made the difference.

WALKER:You made a point, asked a question -- I don't know if it was a question or a statement about what will be said to children today, I think you said that, and said.

WALKER-HARPS:That's one of the questions.

WALKER:And, you know, it's not a lot -- what I think -- we ought not to make big speeches. We ought to just pound in them, "We want you to be a contributing citizen." And we said that enough, you know? We can get carried away about how much money you're going to make and all that. But if you can just -- if a kid can just grow up thinking that "I must contribute something, something I must contribute to this way of life, I must contribute," I think we'll be -- down the road, we'll be better people. We'll be -- see, and we all struck on, right now, going to college. Every parent right now who has a two-year-old is talking to that child about going to college. And that doesn't necessarily need to happen. There are so many other things that a kid can do, you know? I don't think we need to be stuck on going to college. There are some kids who need to 00:25:00go because there are some higher things that, you know, some kids ought to do. But some don't need to go to college. We're going to fool around -- and years, if we aren't careful -- not have carpenters and brick masons and this kind of thing. Now, what's more important, when you call, if you call a carpenter -- I'm going to say a plumber, (laughs) and you can't get a plumber. (laughter) So, I think education can do more in that regard, I really do. I hope we can, down the road. See, we, our schools, our Southern Crescent now, I don't know how much they are pushing, pushing, pushing, you know, the trade skills. Maybe they are, I don't know.

WALKER-HARPS:How can we do -- I understand what you're saying but how can we do that, what you're saying? How can we get the community to understand that --

WALKER:I don't know.

WALKER-HARPS:-- this is it? And I say that because when you were a principal, when you were in the school system, when I was in the school system, our children did not have a choice. We would catch 'em in the hall and you would say, "All right, you're going to be in this class" or "you're going to do this" or "you're going to do that."

WALKER: But you can't.

WALKER-HARPS:And you were backed up by parents.

WALKER:Yeah, you can't do that now.

WALKER-HARPS:You can't do it anymore.

WALKER:No, you can't. You can't do --

WALKER-HARPS:You can't --

WALKER:-- what I did in schools. (laughter)

WALKER-HARPS:You can't do it, so what's the alternative? No --

WALKER:I'd go to jail, like --

WALKER-HARPS:-- you'd go to jail.

WALKER:-- go to jail, yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, what's the alternative?

WALKER:Be in jail now. I don't know, we just -- somehow, it needs to happen and I just hope down the road it can happen, that someone can pick up what you are doing here and look through this -- and it have some great meaning to 'em, you know? You look, I look back at just reading the life of George 00:26:00Washington Carver, some of the, you know, black folks I know who made contributions. And it's important and this -- to say this is what happened in Griffin 50 years from now. I think it's going to be important to some -- ought to be. I'm sure it will be --

WALKER-HARPS:Well, we hope so.

WALKER:-- to a lot of people.

WALKER-HARPS:We hope so, that they will see what you were like and what others were like and what you did.

WALKER:What others were like and --

WALKER-HARPS:And --

WALKER:-- what we did.

WALKER-HARPS:-- well, yeah, what you did. This is one of the purposes of doing this, so that my children and your grandchildren and your grandchildren will --

WALKER:And when you look at it, it's -- what we did and what's going on now is not totally different from what happened when I was a boy, except, you know, we -- obviously, we are closer together as a society. We've desegregated everything, pretty much, and you can go where you want to go if 00:27:00you've got the money, so --

WALKER-HARPS:The values have changed.

WALKER:-- well --

WALKER-HARPS:The morals and the personal values --

WALKER:-- I don't if it's --

WALKER-HARPS:-- have changed.

WALKER:Not everybody. I don't think -- see, I think we say that too loosely. I think we still have the values. See, we see too much TV. Too much TV and -- but that's -- there's so many good people in America. And it's taught by Griffin. There are just so many good people in Griffin who willing -- who's ready and willing to do the right thing. But we don't hear from them as much as we ought to.

CUNNINGHAM:What I would like to know, can you share with us what you think are the positives and the negatives of integration, the effects of integration? I mean, there were some positives, but looking --

WALKER:Yeah.

CUNNINGHAM:-- at it now, looking at the way our educational system is today, there may have been some negatives. But share with us what you think.

WALKER:Well, I think the real negative is that black teachers and parents worked together a whole lot and were willing to accept decisions made by the teachers. That isn't the case now. If a child was misbehaving at school, not doing his work, and you talked to a parent or you disciplined the child, then you got back in that home, that doesn't -- I don't think that, from what I can see and hear, that doesn't work. The positives, I guess, are that, you know, we need to be -- people need to be in relationships, one with the other. If we can't build or I can't build a relationship with a bunch of white folks if I 00:29:00don't ever be with them.

CUNNINGHAM:Right.

WALKER:And so, that's a positive. But one of the real negatives is that we can't discipline children like we used to. And I'm not so sure that black children -- don't need to be disciplined in a different way. Some would fuss with me about saying that but I think so. And it has to do with home environment. See, right now, we got so many children -- parents, rather, who are 20 years old, 18, 20 years old. Now, they need -- so, what they need is a principal like me in school, (laughs) in the school who's going to make the children do what they're supposed to do! There's no doubt. "You've got to do this because it's 00:30:00right." Because the young won't do it -- an 18, 20-year-old person with a child, you know, they don't really know what to do. Grandmama's got to raise the child. Grandmama's bringing the child to school. So, teachers need to be really in charge.

CRUICKSHANK:If you were a principal today, do you think you would be effective?

WALKER:No.

CRUICKSHANK:No.

WALKER:I couldn't because I -- there are some ways we dealt with children that we couldn't deal with them nowadays. You couldn't do it. Just can't do it.

CAIN:If we segue to your time in central office, could you talk a little bit about how you went from other phases of your educational -- being principal and so on, how did you transition to central office? And then, beyond that, the relationship with folks at central office and what your job was in 00:31:00central office --

WALKER:Yeah.

CAIN:-- could you talk a little bit about that?

WALKER:Yeah, I went to central office as director of federal programs. And I found that to be quite fulfilling because I was able to, at that point, deal with kids who were Title I kid. Now, those were the kids who were -- all the kids who were on free lunch. I was able to -- they were at the poverty level, really, from homes that met the poverty level standard. So, we were able to pull those kids out in instances and work directly with them in math and reading. And we accomplished a whole with them. And that was -- I enjoyed that a 00:32:00great deal. I got along quite well with everybody at, you know, at central office. Superintendent, pretty much -- I wrote the proposal and he would look at it and sign it, pretty much. And we had a good amount of money to spend in all the schools that were deemed to be Title I schools, that had, what, 50 percent of that kid's own free lunch. That's how we chose them. And we chose the kids and worked with them several hours a day in reading and math. Spent a ton of money buying computers, getting the computer, bringing the age of computers to school. And I was happy for that.

CAIN:You worked with 'em during the regular school time?

WALKER:Yeah, during the school day.

CAIN:During the school day.

WALKER:During the school day. We had decided that it was more important, several days, for a child to be in reading than in a science class. You know, if he couldn't read, he couldn't master the science class, so we did it that way. Pull out. We called it the pull out. We pulled them out, worked with 'em.

WALKER-HARPS:Do you consider it to have been an advantage for us, I think, community to have had you downtown doing Title I?

WALKER:I don't know. I can't say, Jewel.

WALKER-HARPS:You can't say?

WALKER:If it was an advantage or not. (laughter) You know, any advantage because my goal was to work with all children who were below the poverty level. Many were white.

CAIN:And the criteria was below the poverty level or those who were not reading at grade level or not performing math --

WALKER:Yeah.

CAIN:-- at grade level? So, you had to have that income --

WALKER:Yeah, the income had to be first.

CAIN:-- be first.

WALKER:And then --

CAIN:And then, after that, you need some remediation and --

WALKER:Yeah.

CAIN:-- in math or reading.

WALKER:Mm-hmm.

CAIN:Okay.

WALKER-HARPS:Did we leave out -- any gaps, anything that you would like to say that we may not have asked you about that you think should be a part of your interview that would be beneficial to the --

WALKER:No, I can't think of any right now.

WALKER-HARPS:A physical picture of what the community of Griffin was like. If we could look back and see Griffin in 1961 --

WALKER:Sixty-one.

WALKER-HARPS:-- compared to what it is today?

WALKER:If you would imagine, from the railroad track back this way, it would be 00:34:00us, for the most part. There were some whites living in the area over there where the Northside school is. But for the most part, all of us lived over there or across town on what they call Spring Hill. That's across from -- on Meriwether Street, that section, across.

WALKER-HARPS: Spring Hill and Edgewood --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- where they just finished tearing (down or going to?) tear down --

WALKER:Mm-hmm.

WALKER-HARPS:-- those --

WALKER:Those were our pockets and we were --

WALKER-HARPS:-- the pockets.

WALKER:-- pretty much there. That's the only place we were.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, but did we not have our own businesses and whatever? We had --

WALKER:Yeah, no, we had some. We had cafes downtown. Barbershop. Raymond, he had had the cleaning. Pressing Club, he called it.

WALKER-HARPS:Funeral homes.

WALKER:Funeral homes.

WALKER-HARPS:Beauty parlors.

WALKER:Yeah, beauty parlors, of course.

WALKER-HARPS:Simmons Grocery.

WALKER:Yeah, we did have a small grocery store. Had one over on -- Ed on 98 of the --

WALKER-HARPS:DuBois Road?.

WALKER:-- DuBois Road, being -- they had a little store over there. That's about it, though, (laughs) for us.

WALKER-HARPS:We haven't had -- as I ride through now, and maybe even confirm this, the areas around the mills, the areas, the houses that were surrounding the mills, those were occupied not by blacks, though. Weren't they occupied by whites or were they --

WALKER:Whites.

WALKER-HARPS:-- black? Yeah, whites.

WALKER:They were all -- almost all those houses were owned by the mill and rented to the mill --

WALKER-HARPS:The millworks.

WALKER:-- and people who worked in the mill. And those that -- close to the mill were white. All those around those mills were rented to white people.

WALKER-HARPS:And you'd live at --

WALKER:And the --

WALKER-HARPS:You look at the appearance of it now, and you say, "these were white folk?" Yeah, they were. (laughter)

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, they were, because they were the prominent the workers in the mills, because at that time, we didn't have a lot of mill -- we had domestic workers but --

WALKER:Domestic workers.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, but we didn't have a lot of --

WALKER:There were a good number of blacks who worked in mills and -- until we had the canning --

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, yeah, Pimento Products plant.

WALKER:-- Pimento Products came to town. And when Pimento Products came to town, it employed just -- a lot of people and they -- peppers and, I don't know, they even made some greens, I think.

WALKER-HARPS:Peaches and greens and --

WALKER:Peaches and --

WALKER-HARPS:-- yes, what have you.

WALKER:And it was a big deal. And a lot of people had, you know, had jobs then. The pay wasn't that good but at least they had a paycheck coming from that place. And it ran for a long time. You could smell it all over town.

CUNNINGHAM:Yeah, (laughter) yeah, right.

WALKER:You could. You could smell it. When they were canning the greens --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALKER:-- you could smell them all on the other side of town.

CAIN:And you all had to be in a kind of enviable position. You know, when kids graduated from Fairmont, they had to make a decision about what they were going to do next in life. And a lot of times, I think probably you had to almost be in connection with the business community in some form or fashion to help direct them towards jobs or you had to identify kids who were going to go to college or go to the military. All those post-secondary options for people who graduated, a lot of times I know folks who were in leadership in the high school 00:35:00helped kids make that transition from where they are to the next step, whatever that is going to be.

WALKER:Yes.

CAIN:Was that something that you were involved in and --

WALKER:Yeah, something we did. All our own kids. Those who were, many who were able to get the opportunity. This time, General Motors and Ford Motors, those plants were running quite well. So, many of the young kids could get jobs right away at Ford, General Motors, and made decent salaries. Those going to the military, we worked with them. And we had some we pushed onto college who we knew were college material. So, we did all those things. Some, we had a number, I know, kids who -- McLindon kids who we pushed into Morehouse and Clark. A bunch went to Fort Valley and the whole business. So, we had a number. 00:36:00A number.

WALKER-HARPS:That you have not said a lot about but I know for a fact that you and others did a lot of nurturing.

WALKER:Yeah, we did.

WALKER-HARPS:You were, yeah, you did a lot of -- it didn't just happen that our children all of a sudden became smart in terms of making decisions and --

WALKER:No.

WALKER-HARPS:-- doing well in school. There were persons who took on any number of children as their own, practically.

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:And kind of nurtured 'em and guided 'em through. He did and there were others who did. So, it didn't just happen that --

WALKER:There are a number of people --

WALKER-HARPS:-- oh, yeah.

WALKER:-- did, number --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, a lot of people did.

WALKER:-- did.

WALKER-HARPS:We were mamas and daddies and counselors and whatever.

WALKER:Yeah. And that's kind of absent now. I know -- you take Larry. Larry --

WALKER-HARPS:Yes!

WALKER:-- had no -- he didn't know where he was going or anything. We got him going and he got out of college and did quite well.

WALKER-HARPS:Quite well. And there were others.

WALKER:Some --

WALKER-HARPS:--quite well--

WALKER:-- others that you --

WALKER-HARPS:-- that is a good example.

WALKER:-- just push --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALKER:-- push, push. Push right on. Miriam was another one, (Blaylock?) child that --

WALKER-HARPS:We saved --

WALKER:But there were a number.

WALKER-HARPS:He and his coworkers saved a lot of children, where in -- and this is a difference. This is not happening now.

WALKER:No.

WALKER-HARPS:The connection is not there and the commitment is not there, so ...

WALKER:No, you can't call -- see, you take the kids that I dealt with, some of them, I would, after school, have them to come to my -- take the girls, two girls, Miriam and Brenda. They would come to our house, come to the house. Of course, my wife would be there. But you couldn't do that now. It's, you know, you'd go to jail now for touching. (laughter) So, you know, it's not the same. I don't think you could. I can remember when, if a child got sick at school or something, girl or boy, I'll just -- get in the car, boy or girl, I 00:37:00take them home.

WALKER-HARPS:Of course.

WALKER:But you can't do that now. You can't. There's so much you could do then that you can't do now that I wish we could. It seemed reasonable that a teacher -- but I guess what has happened in the meantime, so much has happened. So many kids have been mistreated, you know, otherwise that folks are skeptical. But that was a time when they were not.

WALKER-HARPS:Even hygiene-wise, we took care of that.

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:You can't do that with a child, comb the -- and the fallout is not from the outside as much as it is from your own.

WALKER:Oh, yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, from your own.

WALKER:Yeah. I remember my wife, when she was at Kelsey, the McLindon boy, Josh and -- (laughs) who's with Allstate now. She used to come make him wash his face every morning, comb his hair. So, I'm saying there are a lot of 00:38:00things that went on when we had all black schools that could not go on now and maybe should not, I don't know.

WALKER-HARPS:Well, I know that you believed in shirttails in, hats off, all kind of things that are part of soft skills now that there is a need for because when you go to look for a job, those are things that you need to know. But there's nobody to pick up the slack.

WALKER:Yeah, yeah, I -- there are some things -- I could remember doing -- telling boys you cannot go into this place and ask anyone to hire you with your hair looking like that.

CUNNINGHAM:Right.

WALKER:You can't do it. Just when you walk in, that's the end of you when he sees you, so --

WALKER-HARPS:Exactly.

WALKER:-- fix yourself up. So, I hope that some of that's going on now. I don't know. I don't know. I hope it is.

WALKER-HARPS:I would hope so.

WALKER:I hope we can get some kids employed. And like I said, just be citizens. Be able to contribute something. If I leave this world and I haven't contributed anything to anywhere, then that's sad.

WALKER-HARPS:Well, that's the story that your children, Kevin and Cheryl would say about you. They had no choice. They will say and they often say they had no choice about whether they were going to do their homework. If they played --

WALKER:Oh, no. Oh, no.

WALKER-HARPS:-- football, (hey can come in tired and or whatever. But you would say --

WALKER:Yeah, well --

WALKER-HARPS:-- "Get your glass of water, then sit down and do your homework."

WALKER:Yeah, well, I hope parents are doing that now. Some are. We can't say all 00:39:00or not. Some are. But I don't know, we got too much ire. We're just moving so fast. We got so many of these online schools. Man, every time you turn your TV on, someone's added another school. You can just -- I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen to our mainstream, mainline universities. I guess they got to get online in order to keep up, I don't know.

CRUICKSHANK:Yeah, that's revenue-driven, that's money-driven.

WALKER:Huh?

CRUICKSHANK:That's revenue-driven.

WALKER:Yeah. Oh, yeah.

CRUICKSHANK:Yeah.

WALKER:Yeah, it is.

CRUICKSHANK:Yeah.

WALKER:But --

WALKER-HARPS:All right, is there anything else you would like to question?

CAIN:Can I ask you another question? Well, you mentioned this a couple of times: do you feel like a lot of this was lost when the teachers lost that relationship with the parents?

WALKER:Yes, I do. Lot of it, that was when it was lost, when -- see, that was a time in my lifetime, whatever the teacher said was right. Now, it might not -- been right all the time but parents, there were very few parents with all the -- with any teacher about anything. And it happened during my time, during my period of principalship. I could call the parent and say what had happened at school or what needs to happen and I'd get an okay. But I don't think that's the same now. How we get back to it, I don't know, but --

WALKER-HARPS:That's a big question. How do we return?

CAIN:Yeah, it's important, it's important.

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:How do we return?

CAIN:-- parents' involvement in their kids' education --

WALKER:Yeah.

CAIN:-- and having that relationship with teachers.

WALKER:You got to do it. You know, what helps the kid, I would probably be fussed at about this for saying but, you know, I think just -- I fussed with my parents, were angry with my parents for dragging me to church every day that they went. But it helped me and I just believe the same thing would be true with some of our children. You know, going to church won't get you to heaven but certainly, I think, it might make you a better person. I do. I think it will. I really think it will.

CAIN:Can I ask you a question.

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Changing values. I think it would, too, but we don't have it. We don't even have it from the faith community, we don't have that encouragement. We don't have that community engagement, we don't --

WALKER:Well --

WALKER-HARPS:-- have it. We don't have teachers going to -- visiting homes. I had to go.

WALKER:Oh, yeah, now, no.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, I had to go a whole lot.

WALKER:No more visiting homes anymore.

WALKER-HARPS:That -- no, but we had to --

WALKER:They don't do that anymore.

WALKER-HARPS:-- you had us go on to visiting homes, yeah.

WALKER:Yes.

CAIN:Talk about that. (laughter)

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

CAIN:This sounds like --

WALKER-HARPS:Visited homes.

CAIN:-- that's the first time I've heard of that.

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, really?

CAIN:Yeah, yeah!

WALKER-HARPS:Oh, we had to go --

WALKER:Yeah!

WALKER-HARPS:-- out and visit at homes. He had us making sure that we put up a bulletin board (laughter) and it's a teacher bulletin and put a -- just pictures of that -- you just had to have 'em in and they had to teach a lesson.

WALKER:Had to teach a lesson.

WALKER-HARPS:They had to teach a lesson.

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:You taught us that if your child is not learning, if your class is not learning, you're not teaching.

WALKER:Yeah, don't -- you got to go talk to Mom and Dad.

CUNNINGHAM:Yeah.

WALKER:I asked them -- we did ask teachers to do that. That was asking a lot but many did it.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, that was a lot.

CAIN:Made sense. (laughter) That's incredible, that just be great to come back --

WALKER-HARPS:It --

CAIN:-- if teachers visited --

WALKER-HARPS:-- yeah.

CAIN:-- parents.

WALKER:Yeah, yeah

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah, it was a different kind of structure.

WALKER:Didn't it used to be that? --

WALKER-HARPS:And I guess because -- perhaps you can tell me this if this is true, perhaps because you felt the need to compete. We were separate but it was important that we be as good --

WALKER:Yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:-- with what we had, is --

WALKER:But we always -- that was always that --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALKER:-- that feeling --

CRUICKSHANK:How --

WALKER:-- that we must compete. (laughs)

CRUICKSHANK:How widespread was that practice, visiting home --

WALKER:What --

CRUICKSHANK:-- going -- you're saying you were going and visiting --

WALKER:Yeah, it was widespread.

CRUICKSHANK:-- children and their parents --

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah. Yeah --

WALKER:Widespread.

WALKER-HARPS:-- yes.

CRUICKSHANK:Widespread like all over Atlanta? How was --

WALKER:Oh, no, no. I don't --

CRUICKSHANK:How widespread?

WALKER:I can't -- widespread, when you said -- well, I thought you were talking about Spalding County. I don't --

CRUICKSHANK:So, all throughout Spalding County?

WALKER:Yeah.

CRUICKSHANK:Right, that was (inaudible)

WALKER-HARPS:In the black community.

WALKER:In the black community, yeah.

CRUICKSHANK:Just in the black community.

WALKER:Yeah.

CRUICKSHANK:Okay.

WALKER:Just in the black community.

WALKER-HARPS:'Cause we recognized --

CRUICKSHANK:You saying that they didn't have the --

WALKER-HARPS:-- a need to do it.

CRUICKSHANK:That didn't happen in the white community?

WALKER-HARPS:I don't think so.

WALKER:I don't think so. I don't know but --

WALKER-HARPS:I don't know but I don't think so.

WALKER:-- I don't think so.

WALKER-HARPS:Well, when I went to the white school, I didn't have to do it -- say it that way. That was not an issue when I went -- when I moved, was transferred to the white school. That was not an issue, it was not a discussion.

CAIN:So, how did that initiative start? I mean, who thought about -- how did that get started?

WALKER:Principal started this. (laughs) Kid wasn't doing well, say, okay, what can we do? And many, see, there were not -- they didn't all have telephones that you could call them or ask them to come to school. They were working. Some were working in homes and they or they were going -- some getting a taxi ride to work and the taxi ride back home. So, they didn't have any time to come to school. So, I just asked Jewel if a kid, couple of kids in her room not doing well, "Jewel, you need to visit these homes." So, Jewel get in the car and go visit 'em. And many times, kids do better because of that.

WALKER-HARPS:And you didn't mind the circumstances under which you were making 00:40:00that visit.

WALKER:No.

WALKER-HARPS:And there were varied kinds of circumstances.

WALKER:Yep.

CAIN:Well, that's definitely a -- shows caring to be able to go out and to identify those --

WALKER:Yeah.

CAIN:-- those kids, those families.

WALKER:All teachers didn't want to do it but I'd say -- you know, (laughter) there were some who didn't like doing it but we kind of say it's necessary. This kid's not going to perform well, he's not going to behave any better unless we have some contact with home.

CRUICKSHANK:Was there ever any pushback?

WALKER:On teachers?

CRUICKSHANK:From the parents or the kids?

WALKER:No.

WALKER-HARPS:No.

WALKER:I never had any pushback from parents. From kids, yeah, they didn't want you to go, but -- (laughter) they didn't, no. They didn't.

WALKER-HARPS:Well, you have to understand that during that period of time, and in our community, the most important people in the community were the teachers and the preachers.

WALKER:Yeah, yeah.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

WALKER:Yeah, so --

WALKER-HARPS:Teachers and the preachers. It's no longer that way but --

WALKER:No long--

WALKER-HARPS:-- it was then.

CAIN:You know, it's interesting, teachers and people in education in general don't make a lot of money. You know, they make some money, it's a good living, but some of the -- one of the best things that can happen for a teacher, if somebody who's made a difference in your life is if that person come back and tells you about it.

WALKER-HARPS:Oh.

WALKER:Oh, stars of mercy, yes.

WALKER-HARPS:Yes.

WALKER:That happen -- and that's happened. I had a child -- haven't been many. Several years. It's been several years ago now. She was in -- I think she's somewhere in Texas. But she called me, said, "I've been trying to get your number." Said, "I just want to thank you for what you did." And this was when she was in the seventh grade.

CAIN:Do you remember who it was?

WALKER:Nah.

CAIN:Okay.

WALKER:Yeah, she was, I remember, I got -- I wrote the child's name down when I was talking with her. But she was just happy.

CAIN:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

WALKER:But she was ready to quit school then and we said, "No, it's just you can't do that." So, we accomplished some things and we just hope it's going to get better. Like I say, I just want our kids to just be kids who are going to contribute. So, give something back. I don't care about how much money you make or what. You just need to, all of us, need to do that. That need to be our goal. All right.

WALKER-HARPS:Anything else? We need to wrap this up.

CUNNINGHAM:Was there anything else you'd like to share with us that we haven't covered?

WALKER:No, I think we've covered a good bit. I don't have anything else.

CUNNINGHAM:Well, thank you so much, Mr. Walker --

CAIN:Yeah, thank you --

CUNNINGHAM:-- for coming --

CAIN:-- Mr. Walker.

CUNNINGHAM:-- today.

CRUICKSHANK:(inaudible)

WALKER:Well --

CUNNINGHAM:We appreciate you.

WALKER:-- I'm glad to have talked with you and I hope this comes out to be a great project.

WALKER-HARPS:We hope so --

WALKER:So --

WALKER-HARPS:-- too. (laughter) We hope so, too. There are others involved but they aren't here today. Ellen Bosca's involved. She's not here today. Who else is not here? That's it. But I hope so, I hope it turns out to be a good project.

CRUICKSHANK:Okay.

CUNNINGHAM:All right, thank you so much.

WALKER:All right!

WALKER-HARPS:And we'll --

WALKER:Thank you.

CUNNINGHAM:You're welcome.

WALKER-HARPS:Yeah.

END OF AUDIO FILE