00:00:05Alexander Stephens: It is July 23rd, 2014. We are in the Russell Library, the Special Collections Library in Athens, Georgia. My name is Alexander Stephens, and could you introduce yourself, please?
Archibald Killian: I'm A.R. Killian, Archibald Roosevelt.
Stephens: Thank you, Reverend Killian. Today we're going to be talking a little bit about your experience in Athens as a business owner, as a police officer, during some important events here in the history of Athens, and looking a little bit at the history of Hot Corner as well. So to start with, could you just say when and where you were born?
00:00:44Killian: I was born in Athens, Georgia on the 10th day of July, 1933, 120 South Harris Street, at home. Yeah. Dr. Jones was the physician. He lived on the corner of Hancock and on the Rocksprings. They up there renovating the house now, that brown and kind of yellowish house. Nice house.
00:01:10Stephens: Great. You have a very impressive memory for that sort of information. I think you were obviously born and raised in Athens, and there's a whole lot that you could talk about today. We want to fast forward a little bit and begin with the time at which you decided to return to Athens after being away. So could you talk a little bit about why you decided to come back to Athens and when that was?
00:01:43Killian: Let me crank it right here. I finished high school in 1950. In 1950, most persons of color in Athens, you finish school on a Wednesday and you left Athens on a Saturday or Sunday. I left and went to Boston and I had a job with W. T. Grant on Monday morning and my daddy wanted me to go to college and I said I wasn't going to go. He wanted me to go to Morehouse. I went to Boston, worked for W. T. Grant and how old was I? Sixteen? And I decided, I said, "Daddy wants me to go to college," and I left home. So I went down to Burdett School of Business and enrolled in Burdett School of Business. There were only two persons of color in Burdett. My daddy came to Boston unannounced. I was living on Tremont Street and he came that morning and I was coming out of the apartment. I was staying with a fellow named Jimmy Hayes. And when I saw him and he saw me, I was dressed like he always wanted me to dress. He said, "A man of color should wear a tie all the time." And I had on a tie that morning going to Burdett School of Business. So after my daddy went in and talked to the president or the superintendent or whatever, I can't remember his name, but after daddy left, he called me in and said, "Mr. Killian:, we thought you were from a wealthy, colored family from Georgia." He said, "Your daddy said you all doing well financially, but he expects you to become educated and to be a leader." My books might still be on his desk. I don't know, because I left them. I left my books on his desk, caught the Silver Comet, and came back to Athens to get my mama, because I wasn't but seventeen, for me to go in the Air Force. And she, against her better judgment, said she'd do it. And I went back to Boston, joined the Air Force. Took me a month and a half, because back in those days, they had a, you know, the draft, and then you could--. The draft said everybody had to go, and it still should say that. I don't believe in folks living off my dime. If you want to be free, you go to the war and fight for yourself, or at least make an appearance. So, I went in the Air Force, went to Sampson Air Force Base, and for some reason, I decided I wanted to be a policeman. And the guy that gave us the test and was deciding what school you were going to, he said to me that "Killian:, you are not going to police school." And this is what he said. He said, "You ain't big enough or dumb enough to be a policeman." He said, "The only thing you need to be a police is a big dumb person." And he said, "You are not going." He said, "You are going to Aircraft and Engine Mechanic School to be a mechanic on a jet." And I said to myself, "I hear them say you can go to mechanic school to be a jet aircraft mechanic sometime for three years, and I want to go overseas." I told him, "No, I don't want that." I said, "I want to go to military police school." Then he asked me had I ever seen a colored policeman. I told him, "No, I ain't never seen one, but I still want to be one." I guess the good Lord arranged it, so I went to Folk Garden, Georgia. Went through military police school. My daddy died while I was at Sampson Air Force Base. I came home to his funeral, so they told me that I did not have to go overseas and blah, blah. I said, "I joined the overseas. That's where I want to go." So, I went to Germany, went to Bitbury, first in Fairbrook, first, and then we left first in Fairbrook and went to Bitbury. And I don't know that you remember Colonel Robert L. Scott or not, but he was from Macon, Georgia. He was a bad boy in his day. And that's when I finally, don't ask me why, but when I was in the Air Force, most of my friends were young fellows just like you white boys, because that was mostly in the Air Force. And so, one day, we had a problem at the base, and the boys said they wanted me to go with them to talk to the air agitator. I said, "Y'all crazy." I said, "I understand what you're saying, but you just deal me out," so they said, "All right." By the time we got, they got ready to go, they said, "Fuzz," they called me Fuzz because I didn't shave. They said, "Fuzz, come on, go down there with us. You ain't got to say nothing." Went down there, and they told Colonel White, I never will forget it, that A.R Killian is the spokesman. I let the drop through the concrete. I had always been shame and bashful and all that, but I said, "Well, they done put me out here." So, I told Colonel White what the problem was. Colonel White marched us to the mess hall, and after that, I became the spokesman for the enlisted personnel at Bitburg Air Force Base. And so, that went on, and I had made up my mind that, really, I wasn't ever coming back to the South again. And so, after the passing of time--. Came back home, got married, moved to California, started enrolled in L.A. City College, went from there to Cal State Northridge, and I was doing fairly well, bought me a house. And I don't know why or how. But I had a dream, and things started to worry me, and my brother Alfred was out. He had gone to BU. Yeah, Alfred finished Boston University and another school of accounting in Boston. So we went to California together. We both were working at the post office. I was going to college and working at the post office. And I said, "Shoot, I ain't going back to Georgia." Crazy. It looked like I couldn't get over the urge to come back. So I asked my wife. She is from Boston. She had never lived in the South in her life. And she said, "I'll go wherever you go." I said, "Oh, Lord." So then I asked Alfred. And I said, "Alfred, if I go back to Athens--" He said, "Whenever you get ready, let's pack up." We used to go to a place out in the San Fernando Valley that sold beer-bodied mules, and they sold hamburgers, hot dogs, and all that, and we used to go in there and just-- He said, "We can go back to Athens, and open up a place like this." So finally, we just packed up and left. I had a house I was paying for. I took the deed and stuck it in the mailbox and left the house. The deed and all. Came on back to Georgia.
00:10:18Stephens: Do you remember what the dream was that you had that made you think you should come back?
00:10:25Killian: That-- It was just something I had to do. It was something, and really I wasn't even going to church in California. When I was in California, I didn't even go to church. I was a member of Ebenezer West here in Athens. I joined when I was twelve years old. And, I was a Christian, but I didn't go to church in California, I didn't have time, you want to know the truth. And so, Alfred and I came back, went to Athens Federal, got the money I needed to do what we wanted to do, and we opened up, really, I think Mr. Wilson will attest to it, we had the best restaurant in Athens, white or colored. So, got it open, and I found out these people didn't have any money, the average Black lady was making $9 a week, man making $15, $16, I said, oh Lord, how in the world, and I might as well tell the truth, I done got a little mad with God about them for sending me back here. And, it wasn't too long after we got back, Mr. Wilkins, on Wilkins Industries, he was living in Massachusetts, and he came back, he and his bookkeeper. And he called me up and asked me would I have a conversation with him. I told him, "Yes, sir." They were the first two white customers we ever had. He and his, I guess the man was their accountant or lawyer or something. And he asked me, did he think he could get two, maybe three hundred people of color to work if he opened up a sewing factory. I told him, "Shoot, yeah, you'd probably get five hundred." And we sat there and talked, and it wasn't long before he opened up Stitchcraft. And when he opened up Stitchcraft, Athens completely changed. A lot of the white folks got mad with him by raising the standard of living, but people were able to get houses, do much better. Business got to going. All this was running at the same time. By that time, Hampt and Charlene had applied to the University of Georgia. And it so happened that Hamp's daddy and my oldest brother went to Morehouse together, and they were friends. So, they got to talking, and Mr. Hollowell, Attorney Hollowell, and all of those lawyers, they would eat at Killian's, and they would sit there and do their business meetings. And finally, the thing came down to Hampton and Charlene would be admitted to the University of Georgia, but Hamp couldn't stay on campus. He had to have a place to live. I ain't going to call the person's name, but they had agreed to keep him. And when push came to shove, they said it was too dangerous and they wasn't going to keep him. Mr. Danner. I used to, Mr. Danner and the rest of them, they liked it. They said, "If the university is not integrated on Monday, like it's supposed to be, we can hold it off for two more years." So, Mama came to me and said, "Archibald, you're going to have to keep Hamp." I asked her what I had to do with it. She said, "You are going to have to keep Hamp." I had a kind of mama you couldn't do much arguing with, but see, I know me, I'm not nothing violent. I just like talking to the gentleman over there while I go, I ain't nothing violent. But mama said it had to be done. So all right, Mama, I was staying upstairs with my wife and children. So that took Alfred's bed, Alfred had to go in the dining room, Hamp went in Mama's room, and mama went in the other bedroom. I guess that Monday morning, Hamp came to stay with us. And the Ku Klux Klan said what they were going to do, I told them, "Well, I can tell you one thing. It'll be your last day." I said, "I'm a veteran of foreign wars. It don't make a damn to me who I shoot or where, now come on down here." They said, they were going to burn the cross in the yard. I said, "I wanna ask who did it." I said, "I might die with you, but it don't make no difference, Ma's next to me." Thank the good Lord they never did come. They went over to Center Meyers that night. I said, "How in the world did I get in this mess?" But Hampton was a very studious young man. He was a real gentleman. He was just a nice person. And he used to go up to Rocksprings home, play basketball with them kids out there in the yard. And he just made a lot of friends, and I guess about a thing started to die down. I guess the people said, "Well, ain't nothing we can do about it." Business was doing pretty good, but it wasn't doing as good as I--. And then what's the next thing came up?
00:16:30Stephens: Well, I'd like to talk with you a little bit about what you said about being nonviolent, I guess, because I think that may be something that people aren't necessarily aware of.
00:16:42Killian: I'm so proud of Dr. King and his philosophy, because that was what made the thing possible. But you know, everybody is like, I tell some people, if we had to take a test today, one, two, three, four, there's five of us in here, and I would imagine we would give five different answers if we could just come off our mind and write what we wanted to, because people just don't think alike. We all have a different point of view. And I'm just not a, I can be sometimes, but you know, it all depends on how you approach.
00:17:21Stephens: Do you think people forget that not everyone who supported the movement or was involved in it was adhered to nonviolence? Do you think people forget that?
00:17:31Killian: I'm sorry if they do, because I heard y'all talking earlier as we were coming in. Do you realize that everybody God used in the movement was nonviolent? Can you imagine what would have happened had violence broke out? Been a different thing. But the people that was leading, you take some of the leaders different places, no education, no this, no that, but they were non-violent and they were able to get the people that was in that group under control to keep them quiet.
00:18:10Stephens: Do you think there's a difference between violence and self-defense?
00:18:14Killian: Yeah. Self-defense is if somebody back you in a corner. And violence is if you just want to fight.
00:18:25Stephens: So what was your perspective on it?
00:18:28Killian: Well, I just wasn't going--. I wasn't going to listen to no junk. I was taught by my mama growing up that nobody is better than you are, and you are not better than anybody. God made us all. And he, and he, all of us are equal as long as we obey the law. We have to obey the law now. You can't be, I'm going to make now, now, now, I think it's in Romans chapter 12 up 13, that you have to be law abiding. But the law should be equal for everybody. Don't have no one set of laws for me and another set for you. That's one thing I learned about the preamble to the Constitution. All men are created equal with certain inalienable rights, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And when I was in college and was studying all that, I came to the conclusion that when America was founded, the founding fathers, Franklin and all that bunch, that was not really their thought pattern of their ideology. But God, some kind of way, we don't know how God do it still, but God put it in their mind if you fixing to start this country, then you need to start it with everybody being equal. But that's the problem with the country now. We trying to caste and class. I read a book when I was in college. We used the book Class and Caste in a Southern Society by Dollard and that was his philosophy. In a southern community, a white community, they got certain mores you go by. Then you go to the Black community across the railroad track, you got certain mores to go by. But then they don't treat people right when they get down to the courthouse. But how am I going to be different from you?
00:20:52Stephens: When you had served in the military and you lived in Boston and Los Angeles, so when you came back to Athens, I would think that those experiences affected the way you saw things.
00:21:04Killian: Well, yeah, yeah. And see, when I was in the military, believe it or not, 99% of my friends were white. And I really didn't know anything about white people. But them boys picked me. And since they picked me, oh, what was that, he was from, um, he was from Alabama. But how in the world I got to be friends with some of them boys, I will never know. But we served together almost four years in the ETO. Some of us went to California together. And we got along, and we were friends, really, because they chose me. And then they treated me right, I treated them right, and we didn't even, uh, I remember, uh, she, man, you done bagged me up now, let me see. Had a fella, when I retired from the post office, I had a car wash down on Broad Street. John C. Tanner, Cullman, Alabama. John C. Tanner, that John C. Tanner. Now he's a white boy if there ever been one. Looks, demeanor, everything. Now how in the world John C. and I got to be friends, I will never, ever know. And I was washing cars one day and this fella came in to car wash and I don't know, we got up a conversation and in the conversation he looked at me. He said, "You foolish." I said, "That's what they call me." I said, "Who are you, John C. Tanner or someone?" You know he didn't say another word that broke up the conversation. Now I don't know what, I don't know what happened. He just asked me, "Was I foolish?" I told him, "Yeah." I said, "You John C. Tanner or something from Cullman, Alabama." And John C. Tanner said in Cullman Alabama, that no colored people allowed downtown. They had to stay on their little end. Now, how we got to be friends, but we went through a lot of stuff together. I trusted him, he trusted me. And when you're in the walk, if you trust somebody, that mean we'll live together or die together. Don't make no difference.
00:23:58Stephens: So did that experience, particularly risking your life with and for white people, how did that play into your decision when you were housing Hamilton Holmes to stand up? I mean, were you afraid?
00:24:18Killian: Not really. Not if the truth be told no. The only thing I was scared of was white that it might get out of hand. But I wasn't afraid otherwise. I done laid my life on the line before.
00:24:32Stephens: Do you think there was a role for people like you maybe who were willing to arm themselves and defend themselves in order to ensure that people like Hamilton Holmes or other people who maybe weren't willing to use violence if necessary, do you think there was a role for people like you to make sure that they could do what they needed to do?
00:24:53Killian: I think so. I think God had picked out people, and that's what really upsets me now, and I heard y'all talking about it in there. We risked our life. We risked everything we had to open that door, and now you got colored folks shooting folks all day long. Don't even make no sense. Won't go to school, won't become educated. We went to school when it wasn't, wasn't popular. We got education when we didn't have to. But you know, I just, I got a problem with it. I really do.
00:25:38Stephens: Could, I guess going back to that time, could you talk a little bit about what happened with the riot in Athens during integration?
00:25:47Killian: Well, I, really the thing finally quieted down. And they were integrating the Varsity and so, but they knew Chief Hardy, Sheriff Hoove, they knew that I was not going to put any persons of color in jail. Now, they knew that. Because I told them, well, after I got to be a policeman. I didn't want to be a policeman. My mama told me I was under an obligation to integrate because I was a policeman in the military. So I finally acquiesced to her, to become a policeman. I think the last night of the sit-ins and the man at the McDonald's on Prince Avenue. That McDonald's was open during segregation. And the day he got ready to open it, he had the chief and the police department come to McDonald's and he said he was going to open it, integrated. He said he wasn't going to announce it, but he didn't want no blue suits in there telling people of color they couldn't come. He said if they come, we're going to serve them. Just that simple. So that went over pretty, pretty good. And the Varsity up on Broad Street, Lord help us Jesus, and Mr. whatchacallhim, at the Dairy Queen. He took his white sign, color sign down, closed up the color water fountain, and closed up-- can't recall his name right this second and closed up the color one and say everybody come to the front. So on this particular day at the Varsity they had police from everywhere all kind of stuff up there all kind of vehicles and so when they had made their little plans on what they were going to do I don't remember who I was working with that day but we got back in the car. Chief Hardy said, "Killian, where you going?" I said, "I ain't with this." I said, "If you think I'm gonna stop somebody from going in the varsity because of their color, you crazy." And I took off my bat and told him what he could do with it. He told me to put it back on and head east because I told him I was going east. And Chief Hardy got out there and told all them white policemen to get back in their vehicles and go on wherever they had to go. He said because integration is in. He said we ain't gonna do this no more.
00:28:57Stephens: And when was that?
Killian: I can't remember the year.
Stephens: Okay. Do you know when you joined the police orce? Do you remember the year that was?
00:29:04Killian: It was fifty-two years ago. Fifty-two years ago.
00:29:14Stephens: Well, I want to talk a lot more about your experience in the police department, but I also want to talk a little bit more about the restaurant, if that's okay.
00:29:25Killian: Yeah.
00:29:25Stephens: What was the name of the restaurant?
00:29:26Killian: The name was Killian's Four Seasons. My brother and I had been to a restaurant in New York City, the Four Seasons, so we decided to name it Killian's Four Seasons, and that's what we named it. And we hadn't been open to very long when university students started coming. They said they wanted to come in there because it was the best restaurant in town.
Stephens: What kind of food did y'all serve?
Killian: We served chicken, shrimp, there used to be a kid called, they used to call them Swumples. (laughs) Chicken, shrimp, fish, all that stuff.
Stephens: And you opened about 1960?
Killian: About '60, I think we came back here in '60, '61, something like that.
00:30:20Stephens: And what was the business scene like for African Americans in Athens at that point?
00:30:28Killian: Well, you just didn't eat in a white place. It was all down there, it was all colored.
Stephens: Hot Corner?
Killian: Hot Corner. Calloway Corner.
00:30:36Stephens: What was Hot Corner like at that point? What do you remember about going there?
00:30:45Killian: Well, I didn't, that's what we were used to. So you go down there, get your hair cut, get you a beer, get a pig ear sandwich, and just have a good time. Meet people, corner didn't close until eleven o'clock on the weekend, and you'd see just about anybody you knew. Charlie Morton had a pool room across the street. So, it was just a place where association came together.
00:31:16Stephens: What was the vibe like? What was the vibe there?
00:31:20Killian: Well, it was good. It was good.
00:31:24Stephens: And then Calloway Corner was another area that maybe not as--
00:31:27Killian: Yeah, that's on the Pope and Hancock. It was about the same way, they had five or six evening establishments there, and believe it or not, the Calloway building was a colored hotel. A lot of people didn't know it, but it was. It was built out of stucco, and it was down in--. That was just one of the places where the people were. You see, Athens High Industrial School was down on the other corner. Reese Street School. Reese Street School is the oldest school for colored in the state of Georgia. I went there the first seven years, and then I left there and went to Athens High Industrial School. And that's where I was now. But anyhow, as Killian's got to working, and then the University of Georgia students wanted to come. So I let them on in. And business really boomed then, because they had money. So they came, everybody was coming.
00:32:28Stephens: If I went back to 1960 or '61 and walk into the Four Seasons, what would I see? What would I see there?
00:32:39Killian: People having a good time. People having a good time. And I can't, I can't remember when it was, but I got a phone call one evening from Governor Lester Maddox. Governor Lester Maddox told me he was down in South Georgia and he said the people down there was complaining that there was a colored restaurant in Athens that was serving their children and he said he wanted it stopped. He said, "If you stop it, everything else all right. If you don't stop it, I'm going to close you down." That's the first time I ever had to back down. But I said, I guess I better back down for the governor. So I assured him that we wasn't going to let no more white students in. That was a kind of rough night because you had to turn around all the white folks at the door. Told them that the governor said they couldn't come in. And at that same time, I had made up my mind. I was a policeman, too. I had made up my mind to quit the police force because I didn't like what was happening. And Mr. Miles, a lady came--. Back then, they had all colored helpers and the Athens Country Club. All the waitresses, the cooks. They were all people of color. So a lady had told me, because my brother Alfred wanted to go to the post office, because we both had worked at the post office in Los Angeles. So she came to the club and said, "Mr. Miles made a statement at the country club today, while I was serving the table, that he would never hire a colored person in general, nor would he hire a Killian in particular." So about that time, when all this was going on, The post office hadn't hired anybody of color since my daddy had went to see Mr. Whitchcock up in Washington, and had no colored person been hired. So when the Civil Rights Bill, I guess, got signed, they sent somebody from, you know, from Washington, D.C. to the post office in the executive position to make sure that people of color had been hired in the post office, and Mr. Miles hadn't hired anybody. So the man came back and wanted to know, I went to see Grady, you know, Grady in the hospital. I went to see him yesterday. The only person they had, Grady had been a custodian, and they moved Grady from custodian up to letter carrier, and when those two gentlemen went down there, they told Mr. Miles that they had not told him to move somebody from a custodian to a carrier. They wanted somebody hired that had never been there before, and he had thirty days to do it, or he would be terminated and lose-- he had twenty-eight or twenty-nine years' federal service, and he would lose his retirement. So-- Reverand Frank C. Maddox was a friend of mine. He was a preacher at Greater Bethel AME Church, and he was making a lot of moves in Athens as far as people of color being hired, being moved up, doors being opened. So Mr. Miles called Frank C. and told Frank C., "I got to have somebody by tommorow." And he said, "I'll get Killian." He said, "He want to change his job." That was funny, boy. So he came out to the restaurant and told me and my mama that I was going to have to leave it. He said, "Archibald been wanting to leave the police force." He said, "I got a job at the post office. All you got to do is take tests." I said, "I ain't going to do it." I said, "I am not going to work at the post office." My mama gave me that look again. She said, "Boy, what you think the Lord sent you from California to back in for, to open some of these doors?" I said, "Mama," she said, Boy, don't talk about no mama. You just get ready to go with Reverend Frank C. to-- we had to go to Atlanta to take the postal exam. So George Maxwell was my partner at that time. So I asked George, Did he want to-- I said, "Don't you want to leave the police force?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, we got to go to Atlanta, take the postal test." Reverend Maddox said he'll take us in the morning. Mr. Myers said he will be waiting when we get back. We went to Atlanta, got back. I made a hundred, five-point veteran preference, and I told Mr. Rumsey, I said, "I got to go around the corner and see Mayor Bishop first, then I'll let you know." So I went around the city hall to see Mayor Bishop. I said, "Look here, Mayor, I've been a policeman almost five years, still ain't got no rank. When you gonna make me sergeant?" He said, "We ain't ready to make no colored man sergeant." I can't tell you because you got a lady in here. And I meant that thing. And he looked at me right funny. I took that, threw it on the desk and walked on that door, went down the post office, told them I was ready to go to work. I mean, some things you just have to do. It might not seem right, but you have to let some people know. That they got to do what needs to be done. So, I went on back to work that day. And then Mr. Rumsey, they gave me the credit for all my military time. And the time I worked, my brother and I worked at the post office when we was in college in California. And gave me that time back. And then it wasn't long before they hired Alfred and then, you know, he made supervisor, he was postmaster somewhere. I didn't want that job.
Stephens: That was your brother?
Killian: Yeah, my brother. Uh-huh. So--. Go ahead.
00:39:58Stephens: So the post office job, it sounds to me from what I understand that you taking that job, the situation was a little bit similar to when you took the police job initially. Why did you, you were reluctant to take the police job as well, right?
00:40:18Killian: Well, I just knew--. Now, why I wanted to be a policeman, I couldn't tell you. That's why I tell folks, sometimes God intervenes in your life, and He puts you where you need to be so that when He needs you, there you are. Now if He hadn't made me, or hadn't got me to go to police school, I never would have been a policeman in Athens, would I?
00:40:45Stephens: How did you end up becoming a policeman in Athens?
00:40:47Killian: Because they had to have somebody. And-- oh, I-- okay. They said-- Well, you see back then, Burroughs-Wilson, no, you had some people of color that was intermediators between downtown and the community. So-- downtown, they went downtown and said, "We want some policemen of color."
00:41:17Stephens: And who, who were those folks?
00:41:21Killian: Ray Weld, Wilbur Jones, and people of that caliber. That insurance agents and you know stuff like that. And uh--. So, let me see, where was I again?
00:41:34Stephens: I'm sorry to interrupt. They went downtown to say they wanted police officers of color.
00:41:39Killian: Oh yeah, okay. And-- I told my mama that I wasn't going to do it, but she insisted. That ain't the way I was though. Wait a minute. Now, what was the question again?
00:41:58Stephens: How you ended up becoming a police officer in Athens.
00:42:00Killian: Yeah, okay. So, after my mama finally convinced me that I didn't have no choice but to be a policeman and open the door, I told her, "All right, if that's what's got to be done, I will do it." The city of Athens made an appointment with me at the University of Georgia, and I think Mr. Wilson would bear it out. Every job I took, I was the only person examined. If I passed, they moved. If I had flunked, nobody would have got it. So they sent me over to the University of Georgia to take some kind of exams. And I took the exams, and the white gentleman that gave me them tests said to me, "Mr. Killian:, you have absolutely no business in Athens, Georgia." He said, "Why don't you pack up your stuff and move to California?" I told him, "Sir, I just moved back here." He said, "Well, they sure can't stop you from being a policeman." And so it is. He said, "You can get any job you want."
Stephens: Why do you think he said you didn't have no business being here?
Killian: Because of segregation. Because of segregation. So, he said, I should have just moved on back to California, where things, the playing field was closer to being equal, you know.
00:43:50Stephens: But you did become a police officer in Athens.
00:43:53Killian: Yeah. So, I told him, "Yeah, I'll become a policeman then if that's what you want." So, Chief Hardy, he was a nice gentleman. Chief Hardy, I had no complaint with him. I think he was about as nice as he could be considering the situation. You had about half the police force was a member of the Ku Klux Klan. They did, they were. A good half of them a member of the Klan. Man, y'all just don't know.
00:44:24Stephens: What was that like?
Killian: What?
Stephens: Working alongside other officers who were members of the Klan?
00:44:31Killian: What's that song Kenny Rogers sang? Got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to pick 'em up. That's the best advice I ever had anyway. You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, and know when to pick 'em up and walk away. Sometimes you just be quiet.
00:44:51Stephens: Can you think of any--. (both laugh) I can't even imagine doing that. Can you think of any situations where you specifically had to do that? Any memories you have of having to be careful in that way?
00:45:07Killian: Yeah. And you just, I guess, I don't know, I guess there's something God gives you. For the first six months, we were on the police force. Lord help us, Jesus. Then one day, one Sunday at the AMVETS on Henderson Extension-- what's over there now? You know where they got the-- but that was the AMVETS club. We came by the AMVETS club one day, it was on a Sunday. These boys was out there waiting on us to come. When they saw the police car turn the corner, we didn't know what it was. But they faked a fight. And they faked the fight, Moon and I stopped, went in. And they were waiting to kill us. Just that simple. But they got the surprise of their life. Because we weighed them out. And one fellow ran, I got my shirt tore off and a whole lot of stuff. But what would a policeman do now in a situation like that? They'll pull out that 10 cent pea shooter and kill somebody. That just is wrong as two left feet. I forgot all about I had a weapon. And, when the fight was breaking down, one of the fellows went up towards Rocksprings Homes. The senior citizen's house, and when I got up to him from behind, I admit I had pulled my weapon, and he turned around and looked me dead in the eye, and I told him, come on, let go. And he turned his back to me and walked off. I reholstered my weapon, walked on back down the street. We had the other four, and a policeman showed up. But after that, they found out that we were not afraid. And we were standing up and things slowly started to change. All right, the fellow that turned his back on me and walked off. I guess it was three or four months later, Chief Hardy called me and said, "Killian, you remember so and so?" I told him, "yeah, I remember." He said, his mama died, and his mother's gonna be funeralized this week. And he wants to know, can he come to the funeral and you not shoot him? I said, I didn't shoot him that day, why in the world am I gonna shoot him today? I said, what'd I charge him with? Anyway, what I had charged him with was three things. That was a $700 back in the old days bond. So he said, what you think we ought to do? I said, let's make him post his bond. He said, we're going to court with him. I said, not unless you want. He said, it ain't make no difference to me. He came back to his mother's funeral. And he and I met after the funeral, and we talked, and we shook hands, and he said, "I just want to thank you." He said, "I have never had a job in my life. I left here and went to Baltimore, Maryland." And he said, "I got a job that week." And he said, "I'll be on it 'til I retire." Now, that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to help folks.
00:49:15Stephens: So to clarify, that was you and Donald Moon?
Killian: That was me and Donald Moon.
Stephens: Who was your cousin, is that correct?
Killian: That was my cousin.
Stephens: And was this, I'm just, were these Klan members who were trying to attack you or were they people, who were those folks? Why were the people trying to attack y'all?
00:49:31Killian: They didn't want no colored policemen.
00:49:33Stephens: And were they white or Black?
Killian: Both.
00:49:35Stephens: Okay.
Killian: Both. It all depends on what you was doing. Both.
Stephens: What was your assignment?
Killian: Nobody wanted a policeman of color. White folk didn't want you. Black folk didn't want you. Police didn't want you.
00:49:51Stephens: So some members of the Black community wanted police officers.
Killian: A few.
Stephens: But why didn't other people from the Black community?
Killian: Beats me, I don't know. But they did.
Stephens: And what was your assignment when you came in? What were you supposed to do?
00:50:05Killian: We were supposed to patrol in the colored neighborhoods. And back in those days, you had colored neighborhoods because there wasn't no integration. And so, we patrolled in the colored neighborhoods. We answered all the colored calls and a lot of folks used to call and ask for me to come because they knew I was gonna try to get to the root of whatever the problem was. Most husbands and wives, when they get into a big problem, it's a failure to communicate. They cannot communicate and they get in trouble. But I would go and I would have the man to be quiet. And I said ma'am tell me what the trouble is. And let her talk till she quit That means she didn't have nothing else to say. Then you tell the man, all right, now you give me your side of this story. And he'd give it to me. And a lot of times you tell him if it be a boy, Archibald is gonna get on back in the police car and go on about your business. That's what people need. They need somebody to mediate to help them get through this hard spot. Cause everybody doesn't have the same education. Everybody doesn't think on the same page, but they have run into a problem in their life. Well they got to fight or they think they have to fight because nobody's there to regulate the conversation. But if you stand and regulate the conversation you would be surprised. But now since interracial marriage, they want to lock you up. They didn't have you couldn't lock up nobody before interracial marriage. Why don't you tell the truth? I done seen so many changes. But then this came up. Where was it? It was a, that's when St. Mary's Hospital was on Milledge Avenue. And one night a taxi was in front of us. The taxi made the turn off of Hancock to Milledge and they put somebody out. And so I said to my partner, I forgot who I was working with, it might have been Maxwell, I don't remember. I said, wait a minute, let's stop this car. It was a white taxi, cuz see then they had white taxis and they had colored taxis. They didn't ride each other. So I asked him, what's going on, man? He said, well, I got this man here in the car, and he done got drunk. And said, I don't know nothing else to do with him to keep him from being hurt. But I just put him out here in front of the hospital, and maybe they'll come out here and get him. So I said, well, I guess we'll take him on to jail. Locked him up with this public drunk back in that day, public drunk was $17. Locked him up for public drunk, it was my time to go to court. We used to have to go to court every morning then, if you had a case. So, got up in court the next morning. Now, how does such information get out so quick? I ain't got the slightest idea. But that courtroom in City Hall was packed front to back, side to side. So, Judge Price called the case. Miss Pierce, I think her name was Miss Pierce, she was the secretary. And I told the judge that he had been in a taxi, and the taxi driver put him out. I put him in jail, just charged him with public drunk, for safekeeping. That cat told Judge Price, said, "I've been all over the damn world. First time I ever got locked up by a nigger." (Laughs) Judge Price told him, "Wait a minute." I just laughed. It was funny. He said, "And done stole my money." Judge Price said, "wait a minute now. We can't have that kind of language in here." He said, "That nigger done stole my money." Judge Price asked me, he said, "how much money did he have?" Said, "Killian said he had $2,100." He said, "How much?" He said, "$2,100." He said, "I've been all over the world, been in jail, everywhere, and this is the first time I ever found an honest policeman." And he walked across the street by that judge and said, "Wait a minute, let's get this straight now, what happened?" He said, "Your Honor, Judge," or whatever he told him, he said, "I'm a merchant seaman, came into Savannah, had been gone a year." He said, "I drew $5,000." Excuse me, ma'am, I have to say this. He said, "I drew $5,000." He said, "I went to every hoe-house I could find in Savannah." He said, "I came on to Athens because I knew about Elm Street," he said, "and I done went down there had every hoe I could find down there. (laughing) Right in court now, court was packed, he said, "and I was getting ready to head back to Savannah to catch this ship. And he's saying, "How much money he say I had?" He said, "I ain't had that much." He said, "I had about $700 left, I think." The judge said, "No, $2,100. "That's the money left." He said, "Lord, have mercy" He walked over there and shook my hand and the court liked to die. He told the judge, he said, "How much money I owe y'all?" Judge said, "Public drunk, $17." He said, "That ain't enough." He said, "What's the next one?" "$28." He said, "That ain't enough." He said, "What's the next one? "I think it's $37." He said, "That ain't enough." He said, "What's the next one?" "Four, I think, then, or $47." He said, "Let me pay this $47." He walked over there and shook my hand again. He said, "I done went all over the world." And he said, "I finally found an honest policeman." And he colored. (laughing) Boy, that was funny. And that's when we got where we gonna arrest white people, after that incident right there.
00:57:07Stephens: So initially, you were told explicitly you could not.
00:57:10Killian: Could not. But after that incident there, that's when the line was broken. Boy, I'm gonna tell you the truth. I wonder where that dude is now, if he's still alive. You can run into some weird stuff, police in there. And you just have to be able to, you're supposed to help. Policeman's job is to protect and serve. Anybody can lock you up. You can give a monkey a key and tell him, anytime you see somebody doing something, lock 'em up. But a human being supposed to have more sense than that.
00:57:48Stephens: It seems like you feel like maybe that has changed within police departments.
00:57:52Killian: It is. I wasn't police, my name was police. And I don't mind telling. Why I want to mistreat somebody? You supposed to protect and serve. You supposed to help people that don't can't help themselves. Look at them police may kill that fella the other day. That's all they do is jump on folks. And then when they shoot you, what did the city do? Send you home for a week, but God gonna put them in hell. You can quote Reverend Kenyon on that. Thou shall not kill. You can't go around mistreating your fellow man. You supposed to take care of him just like he was you. Now where we got into this mess of everybody better than somebody else, Archibald don't know. But I know it don't work. That's why America in the right now. Look at the Middle East.
00:58:51Stephens: So at that point in the sixties you weren't getting, you were getting a clear message from the department that your mission was to help people.
00:59:02Killian: Yeah that's what we did. I think it changed as far as I'm concerned about 1990. Up until then, integration was working. People were trying to help each other. Everybody was trying to move up. And then up jumped the devil again.
00:59:25Stephens: What do you think happened?
00:59:30Killian: I really don't know. Morals. But you know the devil, that's his job. That boy, he always on his job. He does what he is designed to do. Cause confusion.
00:59:42Stephens: You were frustrated in the department though.
00:59:46Killian: Yeah.
00:59:47Stephens: What did that have to do with?
00:59:50Killian: I could just see, that wasn't really what I wanted to do. I had opened the door. And as far as I was concerned, God told me to stay there until I got that door open.
01:00:05Stephens: But you were passed up for promotions.
Killian: Yeah.
Stephens: Did that have anything to do with your frustration? Because you felt like--
01:00:13Killian: Not really, I just used that-- I just wanted to see what he was going to have to see.
Stephens: But do you feel like--
Killian: It wouldn't have made no difference. I was still going to leave.
01:00:20Stephens: It seems pretty clear though that you think you would have been promoted if it wasn't for the color of your skin.
01:00:24Killian: Yeah, I would have been. Yeah. I know I would have.
01:00:30Stephens: Yeah. So you left when you got the chance to go work for the post office. But you said you didn't want to work.
01:00:38Killian: I didn't want to work. See, my daddy was a letter carrier. He used to have to carry mail in the rain, and I just didn't like to carry no mail in the rain, but that was a very good job. When my daddy was a letter carrier, that was the best job a person of color could have in Athens, and probably in the United States. The post office, the clerks were white, the carriers out in the rain and the snow were colored, but those were good jobs. I listen to them today talking about insurance. Shoot, I had insurance. I can't remember when I didn't have insurance because insurance came with the post office job. So we had insurance. Blue Cross Blue Shield.
01:01:30Stephens: You weren't down with the whole, neither rain nor sleet, nor wind, nor snow experience.
01:01:36Killian: You had to deliver the mail. I was teasing the boys the other day. They didn't carry mail. What day was that? It rained. Last Monday, I believe, I told them, "Man, y'all give the post office a bad name." It didn't make no difference what the weather did. We carried it. Rain, sleet, or snow.
01:02:00Stephens: And ultimately, were you happy in that position?
01:02:08Killian: Oh, yeah, it was all right. I didn't-- I just didn't want to be outside, but after I got used to it, it didn't make no difference. See, I carried mail. I was what they call a T-6. I mean, I carried a different route every day, and I just met a lot of people, had a good time.
01:02:28Stephens: I imagine you got to know Athens pretty well.
Killian: Yeah, I know Athens.
Stephens: During that time there were a lot of changes going on in Athens. There was some there was redevelopment going on and urban renewal programs, right?
Killian: Yeah.
Stephens: What do you remember about some of some of those changes? Especially driving through Athens and around town.
01:02:54Killian: I guess one thing that has always bothered me, just like in Atlanta, why did the people abandon their neighborhoods? Why not fix them up? Now in Atlanta, the same thing. I was up there the other week. You take over by the colored colleges, Morehouse, Morris Brown, AU. That used to be top dollar neighborhood. But as soon as integration came, those people moved out. Like where I live on, on, uh, Chase Street, back in the day, every time they would build a new subdivision, they'd come to my house. "Archibald" I said, "Naw, I ain't movin'. I'm stayin' right here." Look at Boulevard now, it went right back where it was, didn't it? When I was a kid, Boulevard was top-- Meigs Street. And when you talkin' 'bout movin', you know it. Didn't nobody live there but the Upper Crust. Those were first-class neighborhoods. And when I ride through 'em now, and see how they all renewin' them, I feel proud. I live right across from Chase Street School. Now, supposin' I had moved somewhere. I ain't walkin' the way I wanna go.
01:04:14Stephens: What about neighborhoods that maybe weren't part of the upper crust?
01:04:18Killian: Fix it. Repair it.
01:04:20Stephens: What did you see happening in places like The Bottom, for instance?
01:04:25Killian: Well, that's where Bethel Homes went. Reverend Maddox built Bethel Homes. And he wanted me to build Bethel Homes. I told him, "Rev, me and you both will end up in jail. We better let that alone." I said, "You go on and run it and get you another contractor to come in and do it." I said, "I'm gonna keep on workin' at the post office." But I used to repair houses and stuff like that. I learned how to carpentry in high school. See, when I went to high school, Athens High Industrial School, they taught carpentry. And I learned how to carpentry. I can build a house from the foot and up. Too old now, but I used to could do it.
01:05:20Stephens: Did folks in the Bottom, for instance, did most of them come back to Bethel Homes that you know of, or did they--
01:05:27Killian: Well, some of them moved, some of them moved and all. I would imagine now they're living all over Athens. They're living all over Athens. And the story about the bottom is this. The Bottom, according to historical facts, it is one of the few areas in the United States of America where people of color lived between the train station and downtown. The Bottom used to be where white people lived. But as they progressed and moved up the economic scale, they moved out of the Bottom and moved up and got better houses. So what history says is when the Bottom got pretty near vacant, somebody, I don't know who, decided why not let the colored people move in there. And they put them between downtown. A lot of people don't realize that when the train was the main means of transportation, everybody went up and down College Avenue from the city hall to the train station. You'd catch the zoo down there. That's the general way of the train.
01:06:50Stephens: So, if people were kind of dispersed, what do you think that did to that community, or to the people who came from it?
01:06:59Killian: Well, they helped some, and some went to public housing. I don't know. They just dispersed around. But a lot of them, I would say, did much better. Yeah. But I was thinking about Waddell and Henderson, and streets like that where they were living. The house-- I went to a meeting some years back, and there wasn't but one or two persons of color there. And the gentleman that had the meeting, I don't know how in the world I got there, the complaint or the argument was that you had to have two lots to build a house. You had to buy two lots, tear them down, and build a new house in the middle. And I sat there and listened to them for a while. And I said, "Well, y'all gentlemen's problem is y'all ain't never been nowhere." I said, "You ever been to Philadelphia? You ever been to Detroit?" I said, "Why not take the top off the house and put a second floor? And you got them right in the same area." And that's what they're doing all over Athens. They came and took the top off, put a second floor. That way you don't need no more space. You get two houses there. So they started doing that. Sometimes you just have to laughs, you know, because everybody doesn't get to see the same thing or go to the same place. So now they're just building them up, building them up, instead of building them wide. Why make it wide? Build it tall.
01:08:47Stephens: I wonder if we could, I'd like to talk a little bit more about maybe sort of economic opportunities for folks in Black communities in Athens, because obviously, while you were a trailblazer and had some difficult jobs, they were also fairly well-paying jobs, I assume, for somebody from the community at that point in time. But you mentioned the Wilkins, you mentioned Wilkins Industries. And about how much could somebody make a week working there?
01:09:14Killian: Forty dollars. Mr. Wilkins said he was going to pay a dollar an hour. That meant you went from less than twenty dollars to forty dollars. And then you could make one, what did he say? He had a number with the most overtime you could make. But that put you from where you were to, you know, where you were able to--
Stephens: Double or triple--
01:09:46Killian: Yeah, double or triple your wage. So Mr. Wilkins did that.
01:09:50Stephens: Was there any, were there any opportunities like that before? I feel like maybe I've heard you mention a company called Butler or another factory that had come to town.
01:09:59Killian: The only one I knew was Dairy Pack Butler. Now Dairy Pack Butler paid a dollar an hour to that man that lived up on Magnolia Terrace. He made a dollar an hour, and somebody else, that I remember, I mean I might not, you know.
Stephens: And did he hire Black employees?
Killian: Dairy Pack Butler. They made, Dairy Pack Butler made milk cartons, milk containers.
Stephens: Did people from Black communities in Athens work there?
Killian: And then Westinghouse came, and Westinghouse opened up doors. Then General Time came, they opened up doors. And it's just like, I guess everything here, once somebody starts, other people will come in because they say, "Yeah, there are people here that can do the work." That's the main thing. Can anybody run the machines to turn out the product that we want?
01:10:58Stephens: But it was sort of a big deal, right, when Wilkins Industries came in and hired Black folks to work there, right?
01:11:05Killian: Yeah, I'm trying to think. Ford Motor Company wanted to come to Athens. They wouldn't let Ford Motor Company to come here because they were finna mess up the economic system.
01:11:14Stephens: Who was?
01:11:14Killian: The University of Georgia is what kept the economics down in this town. They was in charge, period.
01:11:25Stephens: You said they wouldn't let Ford come. Who was they?
01:11:29Killian: Well, whoever was downtown. Whoever was in charge downtown. And Ford went to Hapeville. And this other plant went to-- they was a textile. They went on the other side of Gainesville. See, I grew up in a house where my daddy and them, they kept up with all this stuff.
01:11:54Stephens: Right. So, and was it specifically because they were afraid that they would hire Black employees?
Killian: Yeah.
Stephens: That's why they opposed Ford coming?
01:12:03Killian: That's why they were cruel. They didn't want economic advancement. I'd be willing to bet you, if you could check, you'd be surprised how many millionaires in Athens-Clarke County. (laughs) I carried the mail. Athens is a well-to-do town. It is.
01:12:29Stephens: Why do you think they were trying to prevent people from having improved economic opportunities?
01:12:35Killian: Money makes the man try, don't it? If you got money, you can do a few things. If you ain't got no money, what can you do?
01:12:41Stephens: So, if Black folks from Athens had economic opportunities, what was the fear? What was their concern?
Killian: Mm-mm-mm.
Stephens: Okay.
01:12:53Killian: I really don't know. I know it's always been there. You can't worry about Wilbur Jones. Shoot, my dad owned a, I don't know how many houses and my momma didn't want to be bothered with them so when Alfred and Clarence finished BU, she got rid of all that stuff.
01:13:18Stephens: You said, actually when we were walking in today, that you met someone who went to school with you at Athens High and Industrial who had had a totally different experience from you growing up.
01:13:29Killian: Right.
01:13:32Stephens: What were some of the-- I guess class differences that you were aware of growing up?
01:13:36Killian: But I have found that to be true no matter where you grow or grow in America. People grow up and live in clans as it were. And they really don't know what's going on in another neighborhood. But this fellow, he lived out on, goin towards Lexington. And when I met him in high school, because I had not gone to school with anybody from the rural as it were, and I said to myself, "Wait a minute." I know stuff he don't know, and he knows stuff I don't know, and the only way I'm going to learn what he knows is to become a friend, because I need to know that. And that's what I did in the military. If I find out you're different from me, and you grew up in a different hood from me, I'm going to do my best to make you my friend so I can find out another part of life. And that's where we're failing. We don't know what's going on at the University because we kept separate. I can remember the time at the University that if you didn't work here, you couldn't walk through here. You don't want to know. You couldn't cut off of Lumpkin Street or Baxter Street talking about no shortcut through the University. If you didn't have a job in the University as a custodian, you was at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Stephens: What would happen?
Killian: They put you in jail. That's if you talk back, but they would tell you don't do it no more. You ain't lost nothing over here.
01:15:27Stephens: Do you think that still affects people in Athens? Do you think they still don't feel welcome on campus?
01:15:32Killian: It could be. I hear a lot of them haven't been over here. They ain't got as slightest idea with what's happening on this part of town. Do they? Now you take, at the end of World War II, Magnolia and Magnolia Terrace, those houses were built for colored veterans of World War II. Sunset Drive and all that going toward Prince Avenue was for white veterans of World War II. And if you got on, let's say King Avenue, ain't no way you could walk down King Avenue without the police wanting to know where you were going, who you worked for, what you doing over here. That's the way it was. Up there where you talking about moving. If you didn't live up there, what you doing up there? Wasn't no colored folks up there.
01:16:28Stephens: What do you think that did to the way you see this town now?
01:16:35Killian: I don't know. I don't really even think too much about it. I don't care. Because I've always been able to go about that way, that was another thing. When I was a kid growing up, when I was twelve years old, I got a job down at Fickett's Jewelery Store, 224 East Clayton Street. My friend, Mr. Harold Halton, he was a schoolteacher, Arnel Stroud became a schoolteacher. We all worked downtown, and we could go anywhere downtown we wanted to. I could walk in Sillinson's Pharmacy and order what I wanted. I could go to the Varsity, because they didn't know whether I was getting it for Mr. Spencer or for myself, and that's the way it was. He'd walk in there and order it, and come on back out the door.
01:17:36Stephens: So, you had some privileges because--
Killian: We did, because of who we worked for.
Stephens: you were essentially endorsed by the people you worked for.
01:17:43Killian: Right, who you worked for. I went to work for Mr. Fickett's making $2.50 a week, and I quit Mr. Fickett after about, I worked at Ficketts five years. All my brothers worked there. My daddy worked there on the way up. And then Mr. Spencer gave me $5 a week. $5 is a whole lot of money then. Good gracious. We used to cut grass on Dearing Street, Henderson, and all that. But what you learned to do. I used to know all the white folks on Dearing Street, all of them on Grady Avenue. And they would have a telephone on the table like this. And they would have you bring in the kindling, bring in the coal, and do whatever they want done. And they would have money on the table, nickels, dimes, quarters, half a dollar, the whole thing. And when you got through, said, "Mrs. Lawrence, I'm finished for the day." "Archibald get twenty-seven cents." That's what she--it could be ten dollars laying there, but she said, "Get twenty-seven cents," and that's what you got. It really taught you honesty, didn't it? Because she knew how much was there, and she said, "Get twenty-seven cents." Another lady might tell you, "Get twenty-five cents," or, "Get this." And my mama taught us to keep your handkerchief in your pocket. That way you can tie it up and it won't rattle, because if it rattled, they might tell you that they don't get nothing. Now what could you do? If they told you you don't get nothing, you didn't get nothing. But they wouldn't. So it really wasn't all bad.
01:19:36Stephens: So they never handed you the money?
01:19:39Killian: No, no, no.
01:19:40Stephens: Why not?
01:19:41Killian: They wanted to see what you were going to do. They were going to see-- if you stuck money on that table, you'd take some of the money, wouldn't you? Taught you honesty. It wasn't all bad. It all depended what you did with it.
01:19:56Stephens: Do you have time for a few more questions?
Killian: Go ahead on.
Stephens: You're doing alright?
01:20:01Killian: Yeah, Lord have mercy go on.
01:20:03Stephens: Okay. I'm really interested to know as someone who, you know, witnessed the Civil Rights demonstrations in Athens, what do people not understand about that movement or that time that you think we should know?
01:20:29Killian: Well, you take Athens and most of it, but in Athens, it was mostly children. It was mostly children. The children had the nerve to do what needed to be done. Then you had the senior citizens, and then, like uh, The preacher at Ebenezer Baptist Church, Lord, help him. I guess Ebenezer, he came here from Alabama. And I think his main purpose for being here is God sent that rascal here to lead the integration movement because he got those children organized. He had them marching. He had them doing this, that, and that.
01:21:41Stephens: So Reverend Hudson?
01:21:42Killian: Hudson. Thank you, sir. Reverend Hudson. Reverend Hudson, for some reason or another, he just didn't like me. And I ain't know nothing about him from Adam's housecat, but I was patrolled, that's when I was a policeman. And one day I saw a man. He drunk. I asked him to go home, it was on a Sunday too, and he told me he wasn't going home. There wasn't but one thing I could do and that's to lock him up. I said lock you up for what? He was a veteran. So I ended up locking him up. Get back in the police car to go back to his mama's house to tell her that I had locked her son up and he wasn't nothing but drunk. ??? was desk sergeant. He called me up, said, "Killian, that man you just locked up just hung himself back there." So we shot back to the jail. I jumped up on top of the cage, cut him down, but he was dead. He had died that quick. I don't know how that bastard could have died that quick. So anyhow, Reverend Hudson said that I killed him. And they ended up taking me to court for hanging him in the jail cell. And the day of the hearing and all that stuff, I forgot who was the attorney, but the jail cell was half white and half Black, put Black folks on one end, white folks on the other end, and this guy was back there, and he got up and testified that I did not want to lock him up, and I told him, I was going back and tell his mother and say he hung himself, and they knew it. So that was the end of that. About, I don't know, passing over a little time, I get a call from Chief Hardy. Chief Hardy said, "Killian. We got him." He said, "Rev. Hudson, got into it with a lady at Rocksprings Homes, and I want you to go get him. And we'll put a stop to all of this." So I went up where I thought I might catch him, and I found him. And I told him, "Rev. Hudson, they're getting ready to do you in." I said, "I ain't gonna take you where you need to go, and I ain't gonna arrest you." I said, "Now, it's up to you to get from here to there, and if I was you, I'd stay in them bushes." So finally, Chief Hardy called me back. He said, "You ain't got him yet, Killian?" I said, "No, I ain't seen him." He said, "I told him at first, they ain't have no business seeing him yet." And Hudson made it on back to the parsonage behind Ebenezer. See, that's what I'm talking about. You help folks. And he just kept on doing what he was doing until Chief Hardy that day told them, "Don't come back up to the Varsity no more cause integration is a fact of life."
01:25:54Stephens: So, was Chief Hardy trying to arrest him because he was leading demonstrations or helping with the demonstrations? Was that his--
01:25:59Killian: I think that's what it was. I didn't ask. But I would, yeah, that's what it was.
01:26:06Stephens: Okay.
01:26:08Killian: Cause he was the, all of the, well, everything that happened, happened at, at Ebenezer's see. And sometimes they'd get up there and they'd be down there where it was the playhouse then. That's where Ebenezer's Fellowship Hall is. And they'd call me, and I'd go up there and tell them, just be quiet. Because I didn't care. You can't make me do nothing. My grandpa was a white man. He couldn't make Grandma do nothing. Don't come to me with that crap, because I ain't buying it. You know. And I went down in City Hall one day. Who was it? A male. Who was the male? Let me see. He told me somethin' up there in the city hall, they was havin' a meeting. I told him, "Have you ever seen a Negro look like me get off slave ship?" I said, "If you had a little grandma along, you not to be botherin' with me." I said, "But some of that crap you want, I'm gonna get it just like you get it." 'Cause they ain't never brought no Negro from Africa look like me. It's because of what you did to Grandma. That reason they don't talk to me no more than they do now. Because I would tell them in a New York second. My great-grandpa was Mr. Killian in Madison, Georgia. He owned slaves. And when the war was over, he told his son, my grandpa, that he could leave. And he did. And he came to Athens. He was the first fireman of color in this town. That's our trouble. We just let folks run over us instead of standing up.
01:28:06Stephens: Well I hope that I hope that we'll have a chance to talk again about some of that, some of your family's history and your earlier history. The, I guess the second to last question I have, it's sort of related to what you were just saying. Obviously there were a lot of white people in Athens who opposed integration and who were attempting to prevent things like your appointment to the post office but you also mentioned that it sounds like maybe partly because of your father you had access to aspects or elements of the white community and there were certain people who were willing at least if not eager to help with the changes that were that were coming and I'm curious who some who some of those people were if there were people who were there were white people who were willing to assist with progress.
01:29:03Killian: Well yes, cause I guess had it not been it wouldn't of happened. Every, all white folks ain't bad. No no no no, I know a lot of good white folk they will help you they would do what you can't do for yourself. Now they might not want it broadcast, advertised, but not all people race ain't got nothing to do with the way you think.
01:29:29Stephens: Were there any major players in Athens that you can think of who maybe fulfilled that role?
01:29:40Killian: Joe Gaines and Mr. what-you-call-him up there? Oh. There were a lot of folks. They didn't particularly want to, you know, announce, to publicize, but they did a lot when the opportunity came up to own those.
01:30:12Stephens: I know early on in your life, your father had a meeting with Senator Russell.
01:30:17Killian: Right.
01:30:17Stephens: And what was the result of that?
01:30:20Killian: Well, that's when Robert Nesbitt, he was a World War II veteran, and Robert Nesbitt wanted to go to work at the post office, and they wouldn't hire Robert. And they had not hired a person of color, and I forgot how many years. So Robert came to daddy. And wanted daddy to help him. My daddy was the president of 588, National Alliance of Letter Carriers, that was a colored union. And he decided to go to Washington. So he and I went to Washington, D.C., he took me with him, I rephrased that. And he had got an audience with Senator Russell. And I never will forget, we went into Senator Russell's office. And he served us a Coca-Cola. Now, back in the day-- You take a city like Watkinsville, a Negro could not buy a Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola was too good for you, you had to get a 12-ounce drink. But Senator Russell served us a Coca-Cola. And he asked my daddy what was the purpose of him being there. And he told Mr. Russell, Senator Russell, that he had a friend that was a veteran that was looking for a job at the post office, and Mr. Myers would not hire him. Senator Russell picked up the phone and did whatever you do. Then he talked to Mr. Miles and told him who he was and that he wanted him hired that day. Just like that. I said, hey, wait a minute, I learned something new. What kind of power does this man have? And they hired Robert, and they hired Robert, and then look what happened. I believe the second week Robert was at the post office, that's when they had them old brown trucks, Robert Nisbitt backed the truck into the wall down there at the post office. (laughs) How dumb. And Mr. Myers raised a little whoopee about that, but he knew he couldn't fire him. So everything went on. Yep.
01:33:05Stephens: Well, Reverend Killian, thank you so much for taking time. Is there anything that I should have asked you that I didn't or that you really wanted to speak on that I haven't brought up?
01:33:20Killian: My only problem is why, after some of us went to so much trouble to get the door open, are them young colored fellows out there raising all that whoopee instead of getting educated and going to work and being productive. Now that's my problem.
01:33:45Stephens: Well maybe we can talk about that when we meet up again. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about it.
01:33:50Killian: Why? And then you take a lot of kids now. I heard you and Mr. watcha-call-him over there talk about it. A lot of children don't know where we came from because their parents have not told them about segregation and integration. I spoke at Clarke Middle School, back before the last term was over. And some of them kids told me there ain't never been no segregation. There ain't never been where they couldn't go to school with white folks. I said where in the world y'all come from? I said it don't ain't make no sense. That y'all don't know history because if you don't know history you bound to repeat that thing. Somebody needs to tell these children what we had to go through to get where we are. And that ain't, is it were your fault. That's their parents fault. And the house that needs to tell them how they got to where they are. Because they're going to find that out.
01:35:07Stephens: That's probably why we're talking to you today.
01:35:11Killian: It could be. Somebody need to tell them. It has not always been this way. It has not been easy. Now what you going to do, slip and slide back. They're building a jail out there for a whole over thousand folks. When I was in the police department, 454 filled up the jail. Now why they locking them folks up? Got to be a reason. Gets you control. But who wants to be controlled? Need to be free. Who's that said something to me? We was talking earlier. Was it yesterday? About the Republican Party. I grew up as a Republican. My daddy was a Republican. And the reason was the Republicans say you can go any where you want to if you're willing to do it. You know, it ain't like it is now. But all you got to do is be willing. Get out there and get you a job. Get you a business. And move on up. I don't know what's wrong. I just, I still say it's Satan. That devil just don't want you to make it. He put every kind of stumbling block. But if you in the position, if you a preacher, pastor, or you have the ability to discuss this with people, you ought to put them on the right road. Instead of letting them just keep scuffling along.
01:36:52Stephens: And that's the work you've chosen to do since retiring from the post office?
01:36:55Killian: I guess so. No, I didn't choose it. God chose it.
Stephens: Okay.
Killian: And I didn't choose it. I ain't going to tell that tale.
01:37:01Stephens: That's a better way to put it.
Killian: Yeah, God did it.
Stephens: Well, thank you, Reverend Killian
01:37:07Killian: Well, thank you. I hope I can help somebody.
01:37:11Stephens: I'm sure, I'm sure you are.
01:37:16Killian: I hope I can help somebody because we need help. And ain't nobody going to be able to help us like self. Yep, yep, yep. Get an education. Get a job. Get on the good foot. Woo. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END
