Interview with Wayne Garner, June 16, 2010

BOB SHORT: Im Bob Short and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics, sponsored by the Richard B. Russell Library at the University of Georgia and Young Harris College. Our guest today is a legend in Georgia politics, Senator Wayne Garner. Welcome Wayne.

WAYNE GARNER: Thank you, Bob, Im glad to be here. I appreciate the invitation and the chance to get to see an old friend and reminisce about all the things thats gone on in the past.

SHORT: Well we are anxious for you to share with us some of your memories beginning with your election to the senate in 1980; I might add at the tender 00:01:00age of 28.

GARNER: Thats correct.

SHORT: But before we do, please tell us about your early life over there in west Georgia.

GARNER: Well, I was actually born in Atlanta at the old Saint Josephs Hospital in 1951, in May, and we lived in a little bitty house over on Carr Street. I still remember that address; it was 992 Carr Street, right off of Rice Avenue across Bankhead highway from middle of Maddox Park. We lived there. Daddy worked at Atlantic Steel, and I had two older brothers, and we were all poor but we didnt know it. So we moved around a good bit; moved to Douglasville. My mother died of cancer when I was ten and my two older brothers, I think they were like thirteen and fifteen when she passed awaywe lived in rural Douglas County then moved to Lithia Springs. My dad was an alcoholic, and so he had his 00:02:00troubles, and my two older brothers went in the service to escape all thatI wasnt quite old enough to go in the service then. Hung around there, moved into the mill village there in Douglasville, and I left homehad me a job at a drug store, I was in junior high schoolwell, wasnt high school, that was in 67 I guessand Mr. Whitley, who owned the funeral home, he was one of our customers. I was, even at an early age, sort of a conniver and a dealmaker, and I asked him, I said, Do you have a job out there where I might work and live? He said, Yeah, I do. Id like to have you. Said, You can go to school and work in the afternoon. Said, Theres a room out there, you can have your own room. So I went home that night, I quit the drugstore, told 00:03:00Glen Marrow, who was a pharmacist and almost like a father figure, I said, Glen, Im going to leave you. I got to find me a place to stay where the lights are on and the heat works and so I can get to school. So I walk home and put all my stuff into two Big Apple paper sacks from Big Apple grocery store, and I walk across Douglasville that night to the funeral home and moved in with Mr. and Mrs. Whitley. And stayed there through high school because I was just about beginning the eleventh gradetenth gradetenth, eleventh, and twelfth grade stayed there, then went on to West Georgia College, and later on bought that funeral home, and operated it. So that pretty just a thumb sketchlike I said, were a very poor family, we had hogs and gardens, and I 00:04:00think I livedmy wife and I counted from the time I was born til I married her, I lived in twenty-seven different houses. Just moving around but didnt know any better. If youve never had it then you cant miss it. Then I married my wife Jerri, weve been married now for about thirty-six years, in October of 74; had our first child at 77. Always had an interest in politics; we helped when Jimmy Carter ran for president. I remember being invited to the Democratic Charter Convention in Macon, which would have been in about 75, by a little known state representative in Cartersville name Joe Frank Harris. He and Mrs. Harris drove to Douglasville and picked Jerri and I 00:05:00up, and we rode to Macon. And were invited to a reception at the old Macon Hilton to go up and meet Jimmy Carter and Rosalind; they were beginning their candidacy to run for president. And were up there and I think that whole afternoon theres only five or six people in a room. Dot Padgett, who you remember about Douglasville, Joe Frank, Elizabeth, and myself and Jerri and maybe a handful of othersso very few people came because I think no one had any idea that Mr. Carter would be able to pull that off, but he did. So that sort of wet my whistle for politics and always just sort of thought I might run for something one day. In January of 80, I was getting ready to go on a duck 00:06:00hunt down on the Altamaha River, down near Brunswick. That nightI got up the next morning, found out that our state senator Ebb Duncan had died of heart issues. So I go on the duck hunt, I was down there thinking in the duck blind. I said, Well, I think Ill just go back and run for that, so I did. I believe there was seven people in the race, and we round up in a run-off with Tom Glanton, great guy who was a former House member, had resigned and he got in the race. Well, Tom and I wound up in a run-off and that district was basically Newnan and that northern part of Coweta County, all of Carroll, and about half of Douglas. Well, having been grown-up in Douglas, one worked at the funeral home and all, I had a good base there. Hadnt been in Carrollton very long but then, nonetheless, we got the run-off with Tom and we led the ticket. And I was 00:07:00getting political advice from a character in Mableton by the name of Jerry Landers, and he and Roy Barnes lived right behind each othernext to each otherand then guy in Marietta named Wade Shoals, who was an assistant school superintendent and on the side ran some campaigns because I didnt know anything about it. So they advised me; said, You just stay away from him. Dont get in a debate with him. And I said, Well, dont you think I should. They said, No you do not need to get into a debate with him because you dont even know where the capitol is; he may ask you what floor is the senate chamber on and you dont have a clue. So I never debated him, we just had some joint appearances but any rate. And in three weeks we won by about sixty-two percent. And it was true, Id never been to state capitol; I had to call and get directions to get over here and get sworn-in. That was when then 00:08:00Lieutenant Governor Miller was, I believe, running against Herman Talmadge and Al Holloway was sort of taking over the duties for the lieutenant governor while he was out. So I came over and Lieutenant Governor Miller was at my swearing-in and all that, but when it came time for committee assignments, Al made the assignments. And I remember meeting with him because lordy God I was twenty-eight years old and just didnt know a thing. And they asked me what I was interested in and I said, Well, I just like to be on a committee where I could just sort of learn the process. He said, Well, thatll be Culver Kidds committee, so he put me on Culvers committee.

SHORT: Government Operations.

GARNER: Governmental Operations, the best committee in the senate; used to be, I heard, was that old EREG Committee where Culver actually has subpoena powers I think and well, I think they watered that down and took it away from him. So 00:09:00that began, thats how I got over there, and stayed in the senate for about thirteen years. Then went on the parole board and then was there then Governor Millers campaign, I guess his re-election campaign against Milner.

SHORT: 1990?

GARNER: Yeah, thats right.

SHORT: Lets dont get too far away.

GARNER: So thats sort of how I got here. Just an amazing, fun journey.

SHORT: Well, before we get too far away from it, tell us about Culver Kidd. His name pops up everywhere we go.

GARNER: Culver Kidd was just a wily character, probably one of the smartest people I think Ive ever met; he could keep more in his head. And he took his 00:10:00business very serious but he didnt take himself too serious, which is good. But he had two goals. One was money and jobs to Milledgeville; that was his main function in life, to see how much he could help central state, and they knew him and loved him for that but he was a colorful character. Zell made me his babysitter; I had to sit next to Culver but I learned so much from him and he would just do the craziest things. I remember one day I hard a beeping sound in the senate chamber and I looked over and this inflatable robot was coming down the center aisle. Culver over there with a remote control, who he had dubbedhed gotten mad at Zell about something, called him a robot for Joe Frank Harris, so he had this little robot deliver the message. Zell got mad as hell. Sometimes in the afternoon Culver would come back from lunch, and he would 00:11:00like to have the occasion gimlet at lunch, but this time he had maybe one to many. And he was trying to be recognized to make a speech or respond on a bill and Zell knew that he didnt probably need to get into the well so he wouldnt recognize him. So in the senate, they give you microphones on these wiresyou pull them out and that triggers something, and Zell wouldnt recognize him. Well Culver gets his microphone on the end of the cord startsand Im having to duckand hes screaming out, Oh, great leader! Oh great leader! Finally, Zell looked at him and said, Senator, Im bending as far backwards to accommodate you as you are leaning sideways to talk to me. So that ended that and I finally got Culver to sit down. But then 00:12:00he had his office, the Oasis as you recall, the Oasis and it was up on the fourth floorJoe Andrews, who was a lobbyist for the Georgia Industrial Small Lawn folks, he was up there and he was a bartender. Every afternoon, I mean the press, members of the senate, Bobby Parham over in the House, Pete McDuffie from DNR and everybody just gathered in Culvers office and had a cocktail in the afternoon about five oclock. And it was just nothing nevernothing thought about it. Sometimes wed get so many in there, if it was late in the session, we wouldnt have a quorum on the floor; and Zell would call up there, raising cane, wanting us to get out of the bar and come back on the floor of the senate. He was really something else, but he had a real soft spot for those that didnt have a voice in government. I remember going through the hospitals with 00:13:00him at Central State; he was so involved, even a lot of the patients knew him. If anybody had a problem down there, they just went to Culver.

SHORT: Lets talk for a minute, Wayne, about that race in 1980 between Miller and Senator Talmadge. What do you remember about that?

GARNER: Well, a funny story about that because, like I told you, when I got elected to the senatelike I said, never been to the capitoland that race was during the winter and I got sick, I got pneumonia, I just out working so hard. Finally, when the race was over, I was just exhausted. The only thing Id ever in my life heard about the Talmadges were they were just gods. My daddy, Herman Talmadge and Jean Talmadge, they talkedmy daddy liked politics and he talked about the Talmadge people and how wonderful they were and all. I just never met Herman Talmadge, never heard from him, so this sort of sets that up. Finally, election night about two oclock, everybody finally left the 00:14:00houseI got in bed and went to sleep. And my phone rung about 5:30 in the morning and I picked it up and its his voice, said, Senator, Garner? Herman Talmadge here. I want to congratulate you on a fine victory. And I said, Right, and I just hung up. I thought one of my friends was playing a joke on me. Well the phone rung back and it was this lady. She said, You really, you just did hang up on Senator Herman Talmadge. Hed like to talk to you. And I got on the phone and I said, Well, Senator, Im so sorry. I had no idea youd call me, gosh. And he said, Well, congratulations. Said, Youve done a good job. Said, I want you to get busy and help me beat Zell. Said, Hes giving me hell all over the state. And I said, Well, alright. I didnt know what to say so I hung up. But I remember that race; I remember watching the debates when Zell would propose some 00:15:00program at lunch and then at the debate the next meeting, Talmadge would have this big posteryou remember that?

SHORT: Yeah.

GARNER: --as to how much it was going to cost but that was a rough and tumble.

SHORT: It was.

GARNER: It was tumble race and I think in the end maybe justly run, justlyGovernor Miller got credited probably for wounding Herman so bad that Mack Mattingly was able to beat him. But I know when Mack Mattingly beat Herman Talmadge; I had to go put my daddy in the hospital in Villa Rica, he was physically sick that Herman had been defeated. It was just a tough race but I know later on that they made amends.

SHORT: So you got elected to the senate, come over here to the capitol. Walk us 00:16:00through your first day.

GARNER: Well, the first dayI rememberbecause I got elected on Aprils Fools Day in 1980. Dot Padgett said, When you get over there on your first day, theres been another young man down in south Georgia by the name of Paul Trulock thats been elected to the senate. She said, You look him up, I think yall be great friends, comrades. So that was the first day I got over here and went over to introduce myself to Paul, thats been thirty years ago and we to this day talk two or three times a week. We have our mountain cabins are within a mile of each other; weve been all over the world together with our wives. I guess that first day is where I met Trulock and began to meet some other members of the senate. Sat there and I still kind of scratching head 00:17:00as how did I get from 992 Carr Street to the senate; then shortly after that, I realized that everybody there was about the same, everybody had all their different stories. Then I made friends with Paul, and then Roy Barnes and I had been friends even prior to that; his neighbor Jerry Landers helped me. Roy, I used to call him for advice; one of the big issues back then was the ratification of the ERA, the Equal Rights Amendment. My opponent was for that and I didnt even know what it was, and I asked Roy, Whats this ERA stuff? So he kind of told me, he saidI said, Well my opponents for it, I guess maybe I ought to be against it. I said, If youve got any good reasons why I could be against it. So Roy, he didnt care what side I was, he gave me a list of things that wasand that ended up sort of being the 00:18:00conservative, right philosophy. So I met Roy and Peter

SHORT: The Gang of Five.

GARNER: Gang of Five. And that was Trulock, and then that was in the later years, it was Ed HineEd Hine, Pierre Howard, Roy Barnes, myself and Trulock. The press dubbed us the gang of five; we were the young Turks. And we spent an entire summer crafting legislation, sort of populist like campaign finance disclosure, just on and on and on, and we had stack of it. And we introduced it on the first day of that session, and it was promptly all defeated and killed in committee. Interestingly enough, all of themeverything we proposed became law within six or seven years just under different names. As you begin to look at 00:19:00what you do with leftover campaign fundsthat was one of the proposals from the Gang of Five and we said you either give it back or you give it to a charity; you cant declare it income because you remember back those days you could. I remember congressmen, when they changed that law, a lot of them didnt run that year because they had half a million dollars in the campaign account that they could declare as income. And that was one of the things; other thing was like retirement bills. We had a piece of legislation that saysthis wasnt law then, but its law nowthat a retirement bill cant pass in one year. You got to introduce it one year and pass it the second because, as you recall, those retirement bills that come out of committee and on the last night of the session, they really could get some strange amendments put to them. So thats now law; that was something the Gang of five proposed. Campaign finance disclosures now law; that was something the Gang of Five proposed and 00:20:00several other things.

SHORT: You know the rumor at the time was that the Gang of Five ran into Hugh Gillis.

GARNER: We ran into Hugh Gillis and Hughand I think Zell dispatched Hugh to kill all that because Hugh was quoted inthe paper, said, Its been taken care of.

SHORT: Tell us about Senator Gillis.

GARNER: He was quite a character, I really got to know, and respect, and like Hugh. He sat in front of Culver and myself and we would all huddle. There were generational differences because I was twenty-eight and Hugh had been up here longer than I had been living, but we got along well; liked him. If you sit next to somebody or in the same room for somebody for forty days, you really get to 00:21:00know that person. I sat next to Render Hill before they made me go sit next to Culver and we just became wonderful friends. Through that experience, I think back on theI dont guess theres a county that I dont know somebody. And I get calls living in Carrollton, living across the street from the University of West Georgia, a lot of children around the state and lot of people call and say, Waynejust like last year I got a call early one morning from Trip Martin. His son was in a fraternity out there and they hadone of the fraternity brothers had gotten killed in an automobile accident that night. And he woke me up and said, Will you go out there and be with him? So I called our preacherits just that kind of relationship all over this state that you enjoy having just served with those folks. I sat next to Judge Quillian 00:22:00Baldwin andone thing I tell my son whos started his own governmental affairs, hes worked with Zell in Washington for the whole time he was there, he said, Well, Dad, do you got any pointers? I said, the only pointer I can give you is you treat everybody fair and be respectful because you never knownumber one its the right thing to dobut you never know where theyll wind up. And he learned that lesson last year. We had a piece of legislation we were working on and David Ralston was coming to carry it for us. We had to walk forty miles over here to find David after he had then defeated the Speaker. And two weeks later, he was Speaker of the House.

SHORT: You never know.

GARNER: You never know.

SHORT: Thats right. Do you remember the first bill you introduced?

GARNER: Im trying to recall. I think the first thing I introduced was a resolution honoring and commending Senator Duncan and had his family up and all 00:23:00that sort of stuff. I remember the firstI dont think I introduced a bill the first yearI did the second year; I introduced the first bill and it dealt with a criminal issue. We had a young girl that was killed in Carrollton by another teenager and the law prevented his name being in the paper because you couldnt print the name of juvenile offenders, but it didnt apply to victims. So her name was in the paper, it was not best set of circumstances, and it really hurt the family. So I put a bill in there that if you are going to exclude the criminal you should not be able to identify the victim. I passed it in the senate and it got over into the House Judiciary Committee. And I had to go before the House Judiciary Committee. And one infamous Representative, Mr. Denmark Groover from Macon, got my bill and looked at it. And he said, Young 00:24:00man, youd to be commended. Said, It would take a genius to get a bill this unconstitutional half-way through a legislature. Said, But it stops here. So I justokay, I tried. But then Denny and I from that got to beI got to meet him, and know and love him, and learn of all his goings on

SHORT: Grooverising.

GARNER: Grooverising, yes. He could read a bill and just tell you everything was in it in just a second.

SHORT: Senator, you served with three Georgia governors if Im not mistaken.

GARNER: Governor Busbee.

SHORT: Joe Frank Harris.

GARNER: Joe Frank.

SHORT: And Governor Miller.

GARNER: And Governor Barnes.

SHORT: And Governor Barnes. So thats four.

GARNER: Four. Yeah, I stayedbecause I had planned to leave when Senator Miller left because of the job he had me in you had to have a strong support 00:25:00system. And Id go to war with Zell, but after I was ready to leave. And I told Governor Barnes, I said, Im going to cut out of here, and he said, Well, how about staying through the session. So I did and then left after that.

SHORT: Tell us about George Busbee.

GARNER: I think the most embarrassed Ive ever been, but it tells you what kind of guy George Busbee, wasmy son who is now thirty-two waslets see he was born in 77he was three when I got elected. And Tom Daniel invited us, I knew Tom and met him in another way, but he invited us to come over, and when we got sworn-in to come and meet with Governor Busbee. Well, that was, thats huge when youre twenty-eight years old and youre about to go meet the governor. Well, I had Griffin, and my wife, and we get to the door and knock on it, and Busbee open the door, and Griffin looked up at him and said, 00:26:00Hello, Dummy, and took a flipjust did a flip right over in the office. Well, I nearlyI was mortified and my wife startedshe nearly cried. And Busbee just howled and picked Griffin up and they played because he had grandchildren and they got to be buddies and so theyeven when Id bring Griffin over Busbee would want to see him, but he wasI really liked him. He had a good way about it; somebody described him a guy with an iron first with a velvet glove on it. He could be tough. I remember Trulockwe werehad the budget before the senate, you know you never really fool with the budget, and they were trying to buy this parking lot over in front of the railroad depot. Paul and I thought that wasnt a good way to spend any money so we put in a floor amendment to take it out. People like Culver, who loved to get into 00:27:00any kind of fight, they joined with us; and Paul got up in the well and said he smelled a rat. That theres something wrong with it, we didnt need to be buying that parking lot. Well, we passed the amendment, unbelievable. Well, it wasnt about an hour; Governor Busbee called the two of us down there. And, I mean in no uncertain terms, he told us that was his project and that was his parking lot, and he didnt give a damn how we got it undone but we had better get it undone. And I dont know how we got it, we got the bill back up beforehe scared us to death and we got that amendment put back in and thats how the depot parking lot got purchased. And then another timebut one of the real interestingly things about Busbee isPaul Brown, you remember the old Paul Brown? When Jimmy Carter got defeated and was coming home to Plains, the senate was going to take people down and on various planes. And Paul 00:28:00Brown was in charge of getting up everybody to go down there. And, well, he ran outhe told me I could go, then somebody senior to me wanted to go and he just came, said, Youre off the list. You cant go; you havent been here long enough. Somebody else is going. Well, it made me mad and I called Tom Daniel; and I said, You know how I might get down to Plains and see the President come home? You all got a plane going, or a bus, or something? He said, Sure. He said, Governor Busbee is flying down there with him. And he said, Were sending a plane to pick Governor up, said, You just ride down there with him and you can ride back with the Governor. So I went down on the Governors plane and rode in with a trooper. It was raining after that was over and I was standing by Paul Brown. He said, Howd you get down here? I said, I rode on the Governors plane. And then this trooper pulled up and got me, left Paul in the rain, and Governor Busbee flew 00:29:00back. The weather was bad, and I remember Mrs. Mary Beth, she said, George, I dont like this. I dont like this. But he had a state pilot up there and we got back. But just a neat guy. I came up with this idea one time when he was governor to have the inmates refurbish school buses. And theyre having a program in Texas, so I went out there and looked at that program. And theyd take a school bus at the end of its lifespan, send it to this prison garage, and for about $12,000 make it brand new instead of buying another $50,000. So anyway, I started workig on that. And I got a message that Governor Busbee wanted to see me. So I go down there because I politically nave and I walked in. He says, Hows your school bus project coming along? I went to tell 00:30:00him all about it and he said, Well, were not going to do that. I said, Were not? I said, It sure does make a lot of sense. He said, No, were not going to do that. Said, You probably dont know. You ever heard of the Luces? I said, Yes, sir, I think I have. He said, Well, they make school buses down in south Georgia and said they dont like this. And he said, Theyve been good supporters of mine. I said, Okay. So that ended the school bus refurbishing. But always just a gentleman.

SHORT: Very progressive governor.

GARNER: Very progressive governor. Smart; he knew the budget. Just a delight to be around. I remember the great nights at the mansion; he and the Speaker would get up and sing and it wasit wasnt so mean spirited back then. And it was very impressionable for somebody twenty-eight, twenty-nine years old to be in 00:31:00those circles.

SHORT: Joe Frank Harris.

GARNER: Great, wonderful man. Like I told you, way before I ever thought about being in politics I got to know Joe Frank Harris. And stayed up with him. And when he ran for governor, went all over the state for him, working; we had fly-arounds for him. Then when he got elected, just did a lot of great stuff and we were good friends. And I got mad at him because I thought I should have been his assistant floor leader and he named Nathan Dean the floor leader andwell get back to a story about that in a minute. Worked well with him, I think he was very quiet, laid back, just strong, great guy. A lot of people 00:32:00say his administration might have been a little boring; he did not have a lot of fanfare about it. One of my great Joe Frank stories is Carlton Colwellyou remember Carlton?

SHORT: See him every day.

GARNER: Well, you can ask him about this. When Joe Frank was running, Tom Perdue sent me down to the ParoleI believe it was the Probation Convention, I believe, at Jekyll Island, to be on a panel with the gubernatorial candidates. And it was Bo Ginn, and Im trying to remember who all was in it, Norman Underwood; and they really wanted to nail Norman Underwood, theyd mad at him about something. So we get down there, and theres an act in Georgia called 00:33:00the Police Indemnification Act and thats if a police officer gets killed in the line of duty, the state at that time gave them $50,000. The probation officers and the parole officers were excluded from that. So I told Carlton, Well tear old Norman Underwood up. I said, Well just say Joe Franks late, well just make a little promise that well bring them under that act. So they all made the speech and I got up to represent Joe Frank and I said, Im glad to let you know that Representative Harris said one of the main things hes going to do if he gets elected is hes going to bring the probation officers under the Police Indemnification. Oh, they just went wild and applauded and Norman got mad and said I didnt have the authority to promise thatto make a long story short, Joe Frank got elected. And Carlton Colwell, and myself, and Governor Harris, he asked us to fly with him down to 00:34:00Savannah to some meeting. We thought we were just being rewarded so we get on the plane. And Carlton had a newspaper, he was just kind of looking at it, and Joe Frank looked at me and said, I want to know about this Police indemnification Act and how the probation officers, their association, has come to me and said that Id promise that if I was elected Id do that. He said, Can you tell me how that came about? Well, Carlton just took that paper, put it up; I said, Well Governor, I said, Perdue sent me down there to represent you at that convention and I thought we had to come up with something, some real good deal for them to support you. And I asked Carlton, I said, Carlton, we need to promise these people something, and Carlton said, Promise them anything. Hes going to get the hell beat out of him anyway. So Carlton threw the paper down on the plane. He said, Now, Governor! Now, Governor! Now, Governor! You know I never told him any such a 00:35:00thing! Joe Frank just died laughing. He said, Well, the reason I got you guys on this plane, said, have yall promised anything else that I need to know about it? But he had a good sense of humor. That was my best remembrance of Joe Frank.

SHORT: Q.B.E.

GARNER: Quality Basic Education.

SHORT: That was his bacon.

GARNER: And I guess still portions of it is in effect, but then Roy Barnes was his floor leader. For some reason, one of the interesting behind the scenes things about that is Joe Frank wanted that bill to pass unanimous in both houses. And we worked hard and we had fifty-five votes in the senate; the hold, 00:36:00out of all things, was Hodge Timmons from Blakely, Jimmie Hodge, who was an educator by profession. As usual, when you reform an education, most of the time the teachers aresome in educational groups are against it and there was some against some portions of that. And I kept telling Roy, I said, Hodge not going to vote for it. And he said, Well, so. Finally, I think Roy went down to see Joe Frank. Said, Hodge is not going to vote for it. Joe Frankand this is way out of character for himhe said, Send him down here to see me. So Hodge goes in, and he says everything twice, says, Governor, Governor, Governor. How you doing? How you doing? He says, Hodge Im fine. Sit down. Says, I hear youre not going to vote for Q.B.E. Well, Governor, Governor, Governor, says, youre right. Im not; I just cant get that in my crawl. And Joe Frank says, Well, Hodge Im going to tell you something. If you vote against that bill, Im 00:37:00going to line item veto every dime in your district. Not only this year, but every year Im here. You will not get another penny. Do we understand each other? Hodge flew out of that office, and came back up and sat down, and I said, Well Hodge, what you going to do on Q.B.E? He said, When that thing comes up, my hands going to be like weeds behind the outhouse. Said, Im for every bit of it. Said, I didnt understand it until I had it explained to me a while ago. So we called the vote and the bill passed fifty-six to nothing and thats howthat was one of the few times that Joe Frank really ever strong armed anybody but he got Hodges attention. From then on, we laughed about it from time to time youd get a bill explained to you.

SHORT: Zell Miller.

GARNER: Zell Miller. My mentor, if Ive got one that would be him. And he is; hes been a great, dear friend to me for a long, long time. When he was 00:38:00lieutenant governor, wed just get in fights, not he and I, but if he wanted to do something, we didnt mind taking him on. Wed mix it. Now everything soyou cant amend this bill if its got this on it and all that, but it was just free for all back in those days. So we didnt always give him everything he wanted but he enjoyed a good fight. When he first ran for governor, I supported Roy Barnes against him because Roy and I were just great friends. Well, Zell just beat the stew out of us. And I called him the next day, I called him, I said, Well, Ive sinned and come up short. He said, Well, you can be redeemed for $3,000 or whatever it was. So we took him with some campaign money and helped him. And then that was the year Peter got elected and I ran for Majority Leader. And got elected Majority Leader, but 00:39:00since I didnt support Zell, I didnt go to all the festivities. Once he got sworn-in, was in office, I made an appointment to go down there and see him. And it was an icy reception and I said, Well, Ive come down here to tell you something. I said, I didnt do one single thing to help you become governor, in fact I tried to beat you, but you beat us. But what Im down here to tell you is that I will do anything you need me to do to make you the best governor weve ever had. He just kind of coldly said, Okay. I gotup to leave and he said, Wait a minute! Turned around, he came over, shook my hand, and said, You know, I cannot be governor and do like I used to do, and hold grudges, and be mad at folks. He said, I appreciate you coming down here. And he said, Now youve voted against my lottery. I said, Well, Ill pass it for you, dont worry about it. Well pass it. So 00:40:00everything that he wanted, and he and Pierre were close. All his fights were in the House, we took care of him in the senate. Whatever he needed and wanted passed, we passed the lottery and then we developed this friendship. And then the flaghe called us all in, and going to change the flag, and I said, Have you lost your mind? And he said, Well, are you going to help me? I said, Yeah, Ill help you. That thing just went off. You remember how bad it got. He got Pete Robinson and II was maybe president pro-tem at the time, Pete was Majority Leader sofor us to come up with a compromise on the flag bill. So Pete and I sat up all night one night trying to 00:41:00think of a compromise. We came up with this idea. Basically, it was a white flag and a black flag. We going to have the official state flag would be what Zell wanted and we would have a state commemorative flag, which was the existing flag, and you could fly either one of them; but if you came to the capitol to get a flag you would get this flag. And our logic was through attrition and over some span of time, the other flag would go away. But on state buildings and schools they said, No, you have to fly the official state flag. So we took that down to him and he said, Well, I like that; that might work. So Pete and I floated that thing and its really the first thing anybody out my way 00:42:00knew that I was for changing the flag; they were asking about it. We floated that thing and in a few minutes, they sent a message from the governors office. Said that the governor has dispatched a state patrol, Pete, to your home in Columbus and Wayne to your home in Carrollton. Said that theres threats that they going to burn them down. So I called my wife, I go into an anteroom, I called her and said, Yall alright? She said, Were fine, but can you tell me why the state troopers are in this house? I said, Feed them. Take care of them. Somebody wants to burn it down because I got tangled up in this damn flag. Well, that went on for a while; we had protection forthe compromise got beat and we couldnt pass anything in the senate and then after that Zell dropped it. But shortly after that, I went to him and I said, Im 00:43:00about done. Ive had about all this I want, Im going to go do something else. And he said, Well, instead of quitting, he saidthis is like half-way through 93was it 93?so he was about to gear up to run against Miller. He said, How about going over to parole board? Ive got an opening over there and they saying Im soft on crime, and this that, go over there and kind of beef that up a little bit. So thats what I did; thats how I left the senate. And then stayed there a couple of years.

SHORT: Appointed you Commissioner of Corrections. Lets talk about Corrections.

GARNER: All right. Let me back up just a minute. A little known secret of how I got to be Commissioner of Corrections and this has never been told publically. But I had a little farm down in Heard County, and I was down there one afternoon, and got a call that the governor wanted to see me the next day, which 00:44:00would have been like a Thursday. So I go up to his office and walked in. He said, Garner, you want to be Secretary of State? Thats when Max Cleland had resigned to run. I said, Well, I never really thought about that. He said, They are several who want it, said, I dont owe them anything. Said, But youve been loyal to me and worked hard. Said, If you want it, you can have it. Probably biggest mistake I ever made in my life because I didnt think it was enough action for me. And I said, I dont know. Let me think about it over the weekend, instead of a fool and just saying, Absolutely, I want to be secretary of state. He said, Well, you let me know. And if you want it, you can have it. So I go home and told Jerri this is about Thursday, Fridayand we kind of made up our mind; on Monday, Id go back tell him. Sunday morning, the phone rung at the 00:45:00house, and it was Governor Miller. He said, Forget Secretary of State, you got to go to Corrections. Said, Allen Ault called me yesterday and resigned. So thats how I got to Corrections.

SHORT: But you had been chairman of that committee in the senate for a long time.

GARNER: Long time. Had been chairman of that committee a long time, and I was on the parole board at that time, had been there about three years. Allen and Zell just didnt get along. Allen, doesnt where hes right or wrong, but he had a very liberal philosophy on how you run prisons and how youto Zell he did. He insisted that inmates be called clients and not inmates, and that was rubbing raw on Miller. So finally, Allen decided he needed to leave. So I told him on Sunday, Absolutely, if thats what you want me to do, Ill do it. He said, Well, come over here in the morning, lets talk about it. So we talked about, he told me what he wanted to do. Because, if you 00:46:00recall, the year prior to that we had two riots in two prisons in the state, millions of dollars worth of damages, injuries; just horrible, kind of messed up. He said, Were going to straighten this out. Said, We going to make a prison a prison. I said, Okay, thats what were going to do, thats what well do. So I got sworn-in and then on Pearl Harbor DayI dont know why all my appointments hit on crazy days; I was elected on Aprils Fools Day and sent to Corrections on Pearl Harbor Day, December the 7th, 1995. And I began to put my team together. Paul Melvin, who is still in state government, was the deputy commissioner. Gerry Thomas, A.G. Thomas, who 00:47:00had been a lifelong time career employee with Corrections was warden at Jackson, we brought him in over facilities. We put together a great legal team headed by Christopher Hamilton, who had been legal at Parole, and just put a good group together. My first day on the job, I got a call early in the morning said, Commissioner, you need to go to Lee Arrendale. Theres been an inmate killed up there; 17 year old boy. So we all go up there, begin to try to figure out what happened; hed been shanked. And I got there, they hadnt moved him, he was still lying in a pool of blood where he died, and I toldI said, This is the last one on my watch. This not going to happen. Its going to be rough getting to be where we need to be, but this craps going to stop. So I look at Jerry and I said, Jerry, I dont need any of this. I said, How do you stop this? He said, Well, you have to go through 00:48:00every prison with your tactical teams, search every cell, get all the contraband out. He said, That hadnt been done in years. He said, You will be amazed what were going to find. I said, Well, lets start today. So we brought the tactile team in and shook down Lee Arrendale; we hauled out knives, tattoo machines, hooch-making apparatus, and cleaned all that up. Limited it to what they could have. And Allen had stratified the prisons differently. He and a lot of people believed that if youve got a group of good inmates, basically behaved, you can put a few bad ones in there and theyll modify their behavior to good. Well it doesnt work that way. The bad modified the good behavior to bad. So we restratified all the prisons; took all the meanest of the mean and put them into several intuitions, and those that 00:49:00wanted to finish their sentence, mind their own business, we did that. Then we begin systematically going through all thecaught hell about it. Got sued everyday by the Southern Center for Human Rights. But we went through all the prison facilities, cleaned them all out. When wed find a lot of stuff at a prison, wed fire that warden and put another warden in, and said this is how this is going to be run. Its not rocket science. Yu dealing with forty thousand people that read at a fifth grade level and about seventy-five percent of them are mean. So thats what we begin to do and, as a result, for the five years that we was there, my first day was the only day that an inmate was killed. And we caught uncharted hell about the haze shake down, but it finally 00:50:00got settled. But through those five years, at the end of my tenure, pretty much at the end of my tenure, I ordered a forensic audit from PEAT Marwick. They came in and audited the prison, up and down, compared it around the country, and interviewed Judge Tony Alaimohe and I got to be great friends during all thatand he said we had modeled and developed one of the best prison systems in the country. Now, Cynthia Tucker didnt think that at the AJC, but thats what we did.

SHORT: I read that, looked at that audit, and it said, and Im quoting here, that you built a prison system without peer in the Southeast.

GARNER: Well, I think we did.

SHORT: And thats something to be proud of because Georgia has been known over the years nationally as a chain gang state.

GARNER: Right. We didnt support chain gang. One of the thing we caught real grief on, Bob, is that we fired all the prison teachers. If you think about that, you think how stupid. Well, I talked to Governor Miller about it. I said, You know, were teachingwe had, I think, Im trying to remember how many we had, maybe like a 150, something like that prison teachersaveraging salary was about $50,000 a year. And prisons are designed to move very slow; you get up, you got to open this door to get here, that door to get there, then you eat, then this door to get back. So they were only teaching about three hours a day, not any fault of theirs. So we decided we were going to start, number one, 00:52:00teaching the GED. We issued more GEDs in that five years than in history of the prison system and we stopped teaching so much vocational technical. We were of the opinion that if you can get these guys a GED, its almost like a mini-liberal arts degree, then when they get out, they can decide what they want to do. So we started tele teaching; wed find the best person in the world to teach GE, and wed put 30 inmates in a room, one correctional office and pipe it in. And we started having these graduations, and they started getting their GEDs, and then they went on to do other things so that was important. And the stratification was important; people thought we were being mean spirited going around beating hell out of these inmates, that wasnt the case at all. If you 00:53:00look through that PEAT Marwick auditand another thing, they didnt know that we had opened channels of communication with Judge Alaimo. We ran everything by him because he was not onlyhis heart in the right place; he gave us good advice. So we werent just willy-nilly going around the state; we talked to him. And he began to look at the incidents of inmate on inmate assault were just at rock bottom, inmate on staff assaults were at rock bottom because we had those mean guys off dealing with them and the other folks that wanted to get a GED and try and do better could do it. But the notion of entering these prisons in the middle of the night, shaking them down, I guess had a lot of editorial romanticism so they wrote about it. But Judge Alaimo was a huge help 00:54:00to us. So we went five years without an inmate death. Plus, in95 when I went there our budget was $600 million, when I left in 2000, our budget was $600 million. We never increased the budget in five years.

SHORT: They could use you over there now.

GARNER: Yeah, we could figure something out.

SHORT: When we were talking about Governors we didnt get quite get around to Roy Barnes. Lets talk about him for a minute.

GARNER: Roy Barnes, I tell about him, he could call me right now and convince me to jump out that window, just headfirst. We have just been best friends a long time. Hes brilliant and he just tried to do too much, I think, that first term. And I told him about that, I said, Dont fool with 00:55:00reapportionment. The courts are going to draw that. Dont fool with the flag, do that in your second term if you feel like you just have to. He just created a perfect storm to get beat, and, I think, the perfect storm may be created for him to come back. Well see; we will know in a few months. With Busbee, and Harris, and Miller, there was a generational difference. Roy and I more of the same generation and theres not thatwhen Zell Miller told me to do something I did it, Roy tell me to do something I might argue with him for a little bit about it. Just one of my best friends I made during the senate. I remember when my son had his head injury when he was ten, Roy and Marie stayed 00:56:00with us at Egleston all night long. We lost our child in December; they were first ones at the house. You dont back up on people like that. Just good folks.

SHORT: Speaking of Zell Miller, the constant feuding between him when he was lieutenant governor and Tom Murphy, two powerful men, is legendary. What do you think about that? Was that good or bad for the state?

GARNER: I think it was good for the state. I think it was good for the state. Those are two different guys but they just like to fight. They didnt really give a dang gun what the topic was because somebody asked me one time aboutMurphy and Miller was in a big fight and it was in Governor Millers second term. They said, Why dont you talk to Zell? Get him to just relax and have some fun. And I said, He is having fun. I said, Thats 00:57:00what those two old war horses do. I know Terry Coleman and I was on a conference committee and the Senate and House Budget Conference Committees, they would get all lock down on something; Miller and Murphy, and theyd all get to fighting. Peter would be on one end of itTerry and I, wed get into those conference committees and be sniping at each other. Finally, we stopped the meeting and went outside, and I said, We dont need to do this. We cant settle a thing. And I said, You know generals dont get killed in war, lieutenants do. So I said, Lets just shut up til they decide what they want to do. And in the end, they would come around. Because I know when we fired those prison teachers, Mr. Murphy had a fit because all of them enjoyed 00:58:00some constituency in the legislator withand he called me, I remember, and he was with the Green Door Committee and he said, Im about to put I dont know$25 million back in your budget to hire those prisons teachers. I said, Dont put it in. Im not going to hire them back. I said, Youve got the wrong number. I said, You need to call the man on the second floor. I said, Because Im not. Because when we took them out, the governor made it clear to me, said, You better not cut a deal and put them back in, or Ill have your hide. I said, Youre talking to the wrong one. He said, You mean, youre telling the Green Door Committee youre not goingyou wont spend that money? I said, No, sir. Not going to spend it. I said, Youve got the wrong number. I said, You need to call the governor. Finally, they settled it, but I think 00:59:00it was good for the state. Thats one of the things I look at now; how debate is limited in the legislature now and the rules that comes out of Rules Committee is structured or non-amendable orthats not good. Thats why to me, youve got 180 house members and 56 senators. Youve put a bill out there; its going to be a law of the land. You debate it, you argue about it, and at the end, youll have a good product. Pierre Howard used to say that and I didnt agree with him a lot of time, benevolent dictator kind of leadership is what I like, but Peter always said, If you put enough people at the table and be patient long enough youll come out with a good solution. And I think thats why that was good. The Murphy and Miller form of government; you just hashed it out, you fought about it, you thought about it. And lets face 01:00:00it; politics is not for the faint of heart, its a pugilistic job. Thats why you o it; you like to fight and you like to argue but not be personal about it. A great example is Skin Edge. When I was Majority Leader, he was Minority Leader and we fought all week. But on many weekends, his wife and my wife and the two of us would go off to our mountain cabin and spend the weekend, and have dinner, sit there and read, and not bother each other and come back Monday and go back. We had a great respect and a friendship; we just saw things differently but there was no need to be hateful or mean spirited about it. My dad died in 1992, Skin Edge was one of the first ones at the funeral home. Just had that 01:01:00kind of relationship; I think we got a lot done. But I do think I like the old way of just battling it out every day. And Miller had a knack, Bob. He had liked this teacher thing. Hed come up with something before every session and throw it out there, and it was like a rabbit at a dog track. Theyd just chase that thing, and raise hell, and fuse and fight; and it wasnt really anything he was interested in but theyd finally wear out about halfway through the session. And in the meantime, while they were chasing the rabbitsthe teachers, whateverhed got all the stuff he wanted to do done. It was just, every year it was anotherI remember this speech at the Eggs and Issues breakfast when he got up, just took the hide off Murphy, and called the House Murphys Mausoleum. You remember that.

SHORT: I remember that.

GARNER: He said, All my bills are entombed over there. Made Thomason mad, he didnt talk for two weeks, but he got a lot of stuff done.

SHORT: You announced for lieutenant governor in 1990.

GARNER: Thats right.

SHORT: Then changed your mind.

GARNER: Well, didnt change my mind. Announced in 1990, and begin campaigning all across the state, we doing good and raising money. And it was at that time that my son wrecked his go-kart on a Sunday afternoon and had a compressed skull fracture and a very serious head injury. He kind of got over that, and then went into a post-traumatic stress situation and we had to take care of him. He had to have counseling twice weekly for about a year and a half. So thats when we folded the tent and got out of the lieutenant governors race and dealt with that. Then I supported Pierre when I got out of it, indicating my support for 01:03:00him, and as you knowI guess he and Joedid he and Joe Kennedy get in a run-off?

SHORT: Yeah.

GARNER: Thats right. And he didnt win it on the first ballot, got in a run-off with him, and he ultimately got elected.

SHORT: Lets talk for a minute about party politics. It seems at least to me that nowadays to be a Democrat is to be a liberal, and to be Republican is to be a conservative. That has not always been that way.

GARNER: No, it has not and I dont know how it got to that point. I guess maybe Washington, the national politics, has probably driven that agenda more than anything because I know peoplemy friends, who are a few mis-conservatives, say, I cant believe you were a Democrat at one time. I said, We were conservative. I said, I was a Democrat and the 01:04:00Democrats controlled the state senate but let me give you an example. The Democrats in that body passed a bill one time to put the electric chair in a van and haul it county to county to electrocute people. I said, Now how liberal is that? So I think thats what Miller found when he got to Washington; that a Georgia Democrat has no place in the national party. But that hasnt always been the case. But I think its been, to me, its just been driven in the ground that I think the public is tired of that; they dont care whether youre Democrat or Republican. They want this fighting and bickering to stop. I think they ought to change the law over there that if you want to run as an Independent just qualify as an Independent, and get away from all this party stuff because to me theres not a dime worth a difference in either party. When the Republicans, and lets just face it, under Governor Perdue 01:05:00when they took the house and senate, not one single thing changed. It was spend, and spend, and campaign, raise money, and have these extravagant fundraisers, and it was all the same. And the Democrats did the same thing and its gotten all about money. I think thats why people would neversomebody asked me, said, Why dont you run for congress? I said, Hell, Im afraid I might win. You spend your entire career up there raising money. The average congressman, I guess, has to raise $100,000 a month to be competitive. And even now, state senate seats are $250,000; thats crazy. I wish we could get away from all the partiessuit me not to have any parties run. However you want to run, whoever gets the most votes win. I dont know, you got have I guess some 01:06:00structure to it, but I do think a lot of people would run. Interesting piece in the paper the other day about how difficult it is in Georgia to run as an Independent and how many signatures you have to get.

SHORT: Its almost impossible.

GARNER: Its almost impossible. And it should be just a matter of qualifying if you want to run as an Independent. Because I wouldin this next governors race, I think if you had a strong Independent candidate that said I dont give adoesnt make any difference; were going to do whats right for Georgia, and its not going to be Democrat or Republican. I think one of the things that made Senator Miller so immensely popular is when Governor Barnes appointed him, and he said, Im going to Washington to serve neither 01:07:00party. Im going to serve the people of Georgia. I think that put in place for him to be so effective. And when he got up there it was a breath of fresh air that he didntI went with him, this is a great story. As you recall, the election really didnt get decided until November, and I flew with Senator Miller out to Austin when he met with the Presidentmy son and I did, went up there. Came back and I said, Well, what was the meeting about? He said, It was education. I said, Well, you going to help him? He said, Yeah, I told him I would help him. I said I told him I was for his tax bill too. And I think Bush was so taken aback that he couldnt believe it, but those things needed to be done. And Miller was there just making those right down the middle road decisions without consulting partyI mean, he didnt 01:08:00line up with the Democrats all the time.

SHORT: Wayne, we could go on for hours, but Id like to close by asking you these personal questions.

GARNER: All right.

SHORT: First of all, if you had your career to go over again, what would you do differently?

GARNER: If I had my career to go over again, I would remember that very moment Zell Millers office when he said, Do you want to be Secretary of State? I would have said yes and not let him back out. I think thats the biggest mistake that Ive ever made.

SHORT: What was your proudest moment in politics?

GARNER: Let me think about that just a little bit. I enjoyed all of it so much. I just cant put my finger on the proudest

SHORT: Accomplishment.

GARNER: My proudest accomplishments.

SHORT: You dont think it would be your tenure as Commissioner of Corrections.

GARNER: I think that was the most fun Ive ever had for a five-year span, but my wife didnt think it was very much fun. I think we did a lot of good. Perhaps on the Parole Board when youd give somebody an opportunity to get out and do better and they did it; that made you feel good. I think just the whole culmination of all of it. In that span of time, going to Russia with the lieutenant governor, getting to go to Israel and meet all these great, wonderful people that are now friendsI think the whole thing would be the proudest moment, but I cant really reach back and put one thing. I do think the creation and the helping Governor Miller create the HOPE scholarship probably, 01:10:00if you had to put a crown on something it would be that. We actually did something that has sustained itself and done very well, and has educated thousands upon thusands upon thousands of kids that wouldnt have had a chance. So I guess if youre going to put anything on that, it would be helping him create the HOPE.

SHORT: Your biggest disappointment? Youve already said it.

GARNER: Yeah.

SHORT: You didnt take the job.

GARNER: I shouldve took the job. I shouldve took Clelands job. I remember, I told him, I said, That has to be like being a clerk of court somewhere. But I didnt make it; I got it snatched back on Sunday.

SHORT: Finally, Wayne, how would you like to be remembered?

GARNER: Id like to be remembered as someone who came up here and did their job, and made a difference, and treated everybody the same. We didnt let all 01:11:00that stuff go to our head and so haughty and high and mighty.

SHORT: Did we miss anything?

GARNER: Bob, I believe weve covered it all.

SHORT: Theres nothing that we

GARNER: Im trying to

SHORT: Theres nothing about Wayne Garner weve left out?

GARNER: I cant think of a single thing other than turning the airplane off on the lieutenant governor when he wouldnt help me with something. He got elected and he promised me hed help be Majority Leader. And Pete Robinsonnot Pete Robinson, Don Johnson got in the race. Well, Pierre was kind of hard and sometimes hed be difficult to make a decision, and this was right before we about to have these elections. He called wanting me to fly himI did some flying back then and had a friend of mine had a good plane. So wed pick Pierre up, Lewis Massey, and Shannon Mayfield; flew to Cairo. The senator down 01:12:00there, I cant think of his name at the time, he got on the wrong side; he was for Joe Kennedy so he was trying to make up, had a barbeque for Pierre. So we flew down there; Pierre never mentioned the Majority Leaders race. So coming back, I told Lester, he flew down, and I said, Let me fly back. I said, Dont pay any attention when I pull the power back on this plane. We took off; it was in the black dark of night coming out of Cairo. We got up about eight or nine thousand feet, we had these headsets on, and Pierre was sitting back there. I just reached up and turned the engine off. It was just this quiet. Pierre started just screaming in the headset, Whats wrong? Whats wrong? Whats wrong? Whats wrong? I said, Can you hear me? He said, Hell yes I can hear you. Whats wrong with the engine? I said, Its not running and its not going to run until you tell me how we going to work out this Majority Leaders race. He said, Turn it on! I said, 01:13:00Youve got 7,000 feet. And he said, Ill work it out, Ill work it out. Its done, its done. So we put the power back in and landed it at Peachtree- DeKalb and he called Terrell Starr at one in the morning, fired him off the Appropriations Committee; gave Don Johnson Appropriations Committee; and cleared the way for me to be Majority Leader.

SHORT: Well its been great having you.

GARNER: Thank you, Bob. Im flattered that youd ask me to come over and do this. Its been fun reminiscing and talking about all this cast of characters thats come through that capitol over there, you included.

SHORT: Great memories.

GARNER: Great memories. Well, thank you.

SHORT: Thank you Wayne.