Interview with Glenn Anthony, January 29, 2009

BOB SHORT: Im Bob Short and this is Reflections on Georgia Politics, sponsored by Young Harris College, The Richard Russell Library and the University of Georgia. Our guest is Glenn Anthony, a noted Georgia political reporter and well-known lobbyist for the Georgia Chamber of Commerce. Welcome, Glenn.

GLENN ANTHONY: Thank you very much.

SHORT: You know, I told the people over at the university that I was looking forward to this conversation, because you and I are contemporaries in Georgia politics.

ANTHONY: Right.

SHORT: We came along at the same time, we were both journalists and we have had many of the same friends for many years. But before we get to that, lets talk about Glenn Anthony and Lenoir City, Tennessee.

ANTHONY: Well, Bob I was born in Lenoir City in 1924 in the depth of the Great Depression and Im still haunted by some of those terrible years that I spent there. But I graduated from high school in 1943 and went into the Navy and spent most of my career down in the South Pacific on this charter transport. I came back to the states after the war and I went on the GI Bill to Rice University of Tennessee. Majored in journalism and I had a friend--a fraternity brother there--who had an opportunity to go down to Florida State University to get some course work that you couldnt get at the University of Tennessee. So, he came 00:02:00back to Knoxville with this glowing story about that campus down there. He said, You cant believe this. He said, They've got 1,500 men and about 5,000 ladies.

SHORT: Right.

ANTHONY: Well, it was--prior to the Florida State University it was called Florida State College for Women and then they made it co-educational in 1946 to take the overflow from the University of Florida from the veterinary--I mean, the vets that were coming in there. So, I said, Well, Ive got to go down and check on that. So, I spoke to my dad and mother about it and dad said, Well, how are you going to get down there? I said, Well, I guess Ill ride a bus or hitchhike. So he said, Well, okay. Ill give you the bus fare. So he gave me the bus fare. I went down. I liked the campus down there and everything. So, I came back to Knoxville, and at that time, I decided that I 00:03:00was going to definitely go. And I asked the university to transfer my transcript down there, which they did. And in so doing I lost a lot of credits, so I finally graduated now in 1952. But prior to that, I met a lady named Janet Anderson. She was a wonderful, talented lady. She was a violinist. She was born and raised in New York City and her family moved down to Titusville, Florida, where her grandfather had been a successful land developer down there. So, she came to Florida State and thats where I met her. And we got married while we were still in college. And the financial situation was so bleak that she went back to Titusville and worked in a dental office there to help me get through 00:04:00college. So I did. I graduated in journalism and my first job was at the Oakridge National Laboratory in Oakridge, Tennessee. Thats where the hydrogen bomb was developed. So, I stayed there,--worked on a company newspaper there for about a couple years, I guess. And Janet wanted to go back to Florida where her family was living in Palm Beach County. So I went back to Palm Beach and got a job on the Palm Beach Post Times. Stayed there a couple of years and then from there we went--came back to Knoxville. And at that time--then I was hired by the United Press International. They sent me to Nashville a year or so and then they sent me down to Montgomery, Alabama and I was there when Martin Luther King 00:05:00began the bus boycott. I was there when Rosa Parks, who is one of the main movers and shakers in Montgomery, refused to give up her seat and move to the back of the bus. So I stayed there for a couple of years, and then I was transferred to Atlanta, where I worked at United Press International as a capitol reporter. Stayed there for two years. I was hired by the Georgia Chamber of Commerce to lobby for the business interests. They had about 5,000 members in Georgia. I was recommended to the job there by a fellow named Mike Cheatham. And Mike was a very fine young man and he had spent some time there and the 00:06:00Coca-Cola Company hired him. Theres an old war horse named Bobby Davis that hired Mike to go to Coca-Cola and work in government affairs there. So Mike introduced me to the Georgia Chamber--Walter Tates, an old warhorse. And they hired me and I spent 18 and a half years there with them. And I put together some governmental affairs--tours there. When I joined the chamber in 1959 they had a pre-legislative form that theyd go around the state for about ten days. They were taking--they would take a lawyer, who was skilled in the labor relations, and hed take a business man along to talk about issues. So, that 00:07:00was 1959. I went on a first tour and after I got back--I finished and got back--and I talked to Tates, I said, Why dont we get legislators and government officials to go on this tour? So the Executive Committee okayed it. So the first tour that I took was 1960 with Carl Sanders. He was there for Governor Ernest Vandiver. Also, there was a fellow named Frank Twitty up in Brady County, so that was a very successful trip So, the next year we put that together and several of the lobbyists had heard about the success of it, so they started signing up. And we would work with the Georgia--the local Chambers of 00:08:00Commerce and theyd put the program together. Then wed bring the governmental affairs people in there and they ranged from Senator Herman Talmadge to Governor Lester Maddox, and we had--during that period wed also have a member of Congress. I think the first one to go on the tour with us was Phil Landrum up in North Georgia. He was one of the authors of the Landrum-Griffin bill. So, after that program, we had one there called a--let's see here. What was that? Yeah, a Congressional dinner. We put that on each year. 00:09:00And now the chamber had been putting this together and they would invite the Congressmen, Senators and members of the House for a dinner meeting. So I suggested the next year, I said, Why dont we invite the staff people, too? Theyre the people that I have to deal with. So then we enlarged it and it became a very, very big dinner. Sometimes wed have 500 people there. The people who were--the business people in Georgia, they would come up and they helped us with the expenses of increasing the size of this dinner. It became a very successful program. I think that--but we had another program there at the Georgia Chamber that I got involved in. It was called Stay and See Georgia. We 00:10:00set up a travel department. And the lady in charge of that, Mozelle Christian, she invited top travel writers from around the state--I mean, around the country--to come in and see Georgia on about a week tour of the state. And it became very successful. It was copied in other states. We also had a very popular Stay and See Georgia--I mean, the Star Student Program, where we would select the star student and then the star student in turn would select his favorite teacher. So, one of the offshoots of that was I had a friend at Pan American Airways. He was Vice President for the South and I said, Is there anything you can do for us? He said, Yes, I can. I can give you and this student a trip anywhere Pan American services. So we took that and that was 00:11:00my--then for the next ten years we had that and it was my duty--and I emphasize duty--to accompany this young student all over Europe, South America, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Peru--went to all those countries-- France, London, Paris, Rome. So I had that duty for ten years. And so, that was a good addition to my program.

SHORT: Glenn, before we get too far away from it, lets go back to Montgomery.

ANTHONY: Yeah, okay.

SHORT: You covered the Civil Rights movement in Montgomery, so you knew Dr. King.

ANTHONY: Knew him very well. After he made--when that boycott--that boycott first began, I got know him pretty well. And after he started making some big news headlines, theAtlanta office of the United Press International called me and said, See if you can get an in-depth interview with this young preacher over there. And so I called him up and he said, Yes, come on out to the House and well talk about what I have in mind. So, I went out there. I spent an hour or more with him, and this fellow was quoting poetry. He was quoting the philosophers and he was a very bright man and I went back and told 00:13:00them in Atlanta. I said, Youre going to hear from this fellow. Hes got some talent. So he went on to win the Nobel. You know what he did for the Civil Rights movement. But that was a great part of my life during the period of two years I spent there, during that bus boycott. I saw him even when he won the Nobel Prize. I saw him a couple of times. Hed always remember me and he was always very friendly. So, I knew that he was going to make some news, which he did worldwide.

SHORT: So, you came then to Atlanta to cover the capital when Marvin Griffin was Governor.

ANTHONY: Thats right.

SHORT: Marvin, of course, was a staunch segregationist and a very colorful man. You remember much about him?

ANTHONY: Well, he had a great sense of humor. And as I was a reporter, we'd come in this office, maybe half a dozen of us from the Atlanta Journal and the Constitution. And it was hard to get anything out of him because he would turn our questions into humorous answers. So the press, of course, really hit him. He had some things going on in his administration that the public needed to know about. So we reporters, we got down and tried to cover it all. But even through all of those bleak days when he was going through this--what somebody called the 00:15:00assassination of his character, and then somebody said, Well, what character does he have? But anyway, he had his brother Cheney. He was in the office and he was his hatchet man. I mean, he did all the gory stuff that had to be done in the administration. We had an older gentleman there named Hamilton that was the Secretary of the Treasury. And we had a fellow in the purchasing department; I cant remember his name right now. But anyway, it was a very colorful administration. Thats the part that I remember most about it.

SHORT: He called you Gentleman Jorees.

ANTHONY: Joree, well, yes, he did. He called all the reporters Jorees and the Joree is small bird, which traipses around in the meadows and picks up the droppings from the cattle and so forth. So Marvin Griffin put us in with them. After I joined the Georgia Chamber I decided to organize a golf tournament for all the news people in Atlanta and anywhere else in the state. We called it the Joree Open and that program we carried for about ten or 12 years. And we had all the top journalists in Atlanta--the TV, print journalism--we had them all. They all came to the program and that was very good.

SHORT: Were you covering the capitol when Governor Griffin and Lieutenant Governor Vandiver got into a big fight over money that Griffin wanted for rural roads?

ANTHONY: Yes, I was there, yeah. Yeah.

SHORT: What do you remember about that?

ANTHONY: A little bit vague on that, trying to remember the name of the highway department--

SHORT: Roger Lawson.

ANTHONY: Roger Lawson from Hawkinsville, Georgia, I believe.

SHORT: Right.

ANTHONY: And I think that bill was killed as I remember.

SHORT: Right.

ANTHONY: So, I was there for that.

SHORT: Well, despite all of his trouble with corruption, Griffin turned out to 00:18:00be a fairly progressive Governor.

ANTHONY: Yes, he did. He had some good points and some good traits. But now, Earnest Vandiver came in. He was a quality individual--a fine man, a fine person, a man of great character. Wed just gone through those years with the Marvin Griffin administration and it was really a bright day in Georgia when Earnest Vandiver came in. And he came in at the time during the integration movement and he said he would abide by the will of the people in Georgia in the South, that no school in Georgia would be integrated. But then he backed off on 00:19:00that, as you know, and the schools weren't segregated.

SHORT: And the University of Georgia.

ANTHONY: Thats right. The University of Georgia and--lets see, Im trying to remember the names. Cant remember right now.

SHORT: Of the students?

ANTHONY: Yeah.

SHORT: Hamilton Holmes--

ANTHONY: Hamilton Holmes, yes.

SHORT:--Was one, and the other was the young lady Charlene Hunter.

ANTHONY: Charlene Hunter, right.

SHORT: Right, and they were the first students to integrate the University of Georgia. Griffin ran again following Vandiver's term against a young state Senator from Augusta, Carl Sanders, who defeated him. Most people think that Griffin lost the race because of charges of corruption, but there are others who 00:20:00think that Sanders just out-campaigned him and won. What do you recall about that race?

ANTHONY: Hmm. A little bit vague on that, but--

SHORT: Some people think that the election of Carl Sanders in 1962 was one of the real turning points in Georgia history.

ANTHONY: Absolutely. Now, as I mentioned earlier, Sanders was the floor leader in the Senate and Twitty in the House, and there was one quality that Sanders had. Now, when we would take this large group around the state to speak--the Congressmen and a member of the Georgia legislature or the Georgia 00:21:00government--and we had a lot of lobbyists in our group. And after each evening session wed all gather in a room somewhere--drink a lot of whisky, tell a lot of lies. But the one person who did not attend those evening sessions was Carl Sanders. He would always go to his room after the meeting and hed prepare for the next meeting. We had a lot of times--breakfast, noon and dinner--breakfast, lunch and dinner, and he was very well-prepared in his statements that he made, and it was very obvious then that he was a serious guy. And so, Frank Twitty--he was a much better speaker than Twitty, and Twitty came at him with a--he called the Senator my short shirted friend. And that didnt go over too well with 00:22:00Sanders! But anyway thats what it was. Short-shirted friend!

SHORT: Actually, Governor Sanders was the first Governor that we had, as I recall, who had ties to Washington. Most of our Governors had always cursed them and not gotten along with the federal government, but Sanders became a very good friend of Lyndon Johnson. And as a result, it was a great help to Georgia--from the federal government.

ANTHONY: And another thing Carl Sanders was instrumental in was getting the sports in this city--I mean, professional teams. Sanders was one of the leaders in that. And few people know about that, but he was really, really big in that program.

SHORT: He had what, I guess, was called a moderate approach to the race issue 00:23:00during that period.

ANTHONY: Yes, he did. Yes.

SHORT: And a lot of people think that when he ran for reelection in 1970 that that hurt him when he was defeated by Jimmy Carter. Do you think thats true?

ANTHONY: Well, Im not sure about that. I really am not, Bob. I just dont know.

SHORT: Let's talk for a minute about lobbying. What makes a good lobbyist?

ANTHONY: Well, number one is honesty. Youve got to deal with these legislators and be completely up front in dealing with them. You cant come on 00:24:00and tell them two or three different tales and have to come back and say, Well, Im sorry. So, I would say honesty is the number one. I lobbied there for more than 20 years with the Georgia Chamber and the Georgia Forest Association, and I can say that at no period during that time did I ever have any problems--individual problems with the legislators. And I felt that--I think they recognized me, because the House Representative commended me for my honesty and integrity. Passed a resolution. The Senate did likewise. And Senator Bill 00:25:00English from Swainsboro, Georgia, introduced the resolution in the state Senate, commending me for my honesty and integrity. So, those were quite a highlight of my career there. And I was told by some of the old timers there that theyd never heard of a lobbyistin the history of this state ever being commended for the service. So that was a very proud moment for me and my family.

SHORT: Well, you deserved it. But on the other hand, you took a lot of flack, also.

ANTHONY: Yes, I did. We had one instance that went all the way to the top with Governor Jimmy Carter. He had Elliott Levitas, a Representative of DeKalb 00:26:00county, to introduce a bill, which was called Consumer Protection Legislation. And so, after we analyzed it--we had a table of accountants and tax lawyers and so forth--they said, This is a killer bill for business. And so, I rallied the troops then and we killed the bill. And so after that, Jimmy Carter, in a press conference a few days later, he called me the most damaging lobbyist in the state, because I killed a bill that would have benefited the people of Georgia. So, after that commendation from the Governor, my Board of Directors 00:27:00said, Charge on, Anthony. Youre doing your job, youre just doing it for free.

SHORT: They called you tiger.

ANTHONY: They called me tiger, hmm-mm. It was a nickname.

SHORT: Well, there must be a story behind that.

ANTHONY: Well, when I got onto a project--got onto a bill, you know, I charged--I saw it to conclusion. I would see that wed get the bills passed or killed and I was unrelenting in my time that I was involved in those legislations and I wouldnt give up. So that was a--that was an honor bestowed upon me by my fellow lobbyists. They called me the Tiger.

SHORT: Now they call you Colonel.

ANTHONY: Colonel, thats right, yeah.

SHORT: How did you get that rank?

ANTHONY: Well, did you know that the Governors there, they have honorary Colonels that they hand out. But the one who really--Lester Maddox started calling me the Colonel and every time Id go in his office, he'd say, Colonel, what can I do for you today? And so he was quite a showman as everybody knows.

SHORT: Lets explore for a minute, Glenn, if you will, the mechanics of lobbying. For example, what is the first thing a lobbyist does when he finds out that a bill that affects him is about to be introduced?

ANTHONY: Well, what I did--and I assume what most of the lobbyists did--they go 00:29:00back to their employer and sit down. I would go back. If we had a bill that I could get my hands on Id take it back to my office. Wed rally the lawyers and the accountants and so forth, and they would study the bill and they would up with some good, concrete evidence of what it would do to business. Now we were not unreasonable over there in representing the business, but most of the time most of my energies were expended on killing bills, not passing bills.

SHORT: Hmm-mm.

ANTHONY: And we would take down the bills that would affect the business community.

SHORT: But sometimes you might settle for amendments.

ANTHONY: Amendments?

SHORT: To the bill.

ANTHONY: Yes, yes, we did. Occasionally wed settle for one.

SHORT: And youd go to the sponsor and suggest those amendments.

ANTHONY: Right.

SHORT: And what if a sponsor rejected them?

ANTHONY: Well, if he did wed just go ahead and kill the bill.

SHORT: You know it seems, I guess, to most people, that lobbying work is done there in the capitol. But thats not it, is it?

ANTHONY: Oh, no, no.

SHORT: Tell us about what you do during the interim.

ANTHONY: All right. I had a plan every summer. I would get out. I would go to every legislator in the Georgia General Assembly and Id go see him in his home town. I visited with him. I might take him to lunch or I might take him to dinner. And I got every legislator I saw between sessions on trips around and 00:31:00that was impressive to these people, going up to Young Harris or going to Walker County. So, that was well received by these people--that this fellow from Atlanta thinks enough about me to drive 200 miles or 300, 500 miles. And so, that was a good program that I put together.

SHORT: Representing the Chamber of Commerce, you obviously at the same time represented a lot of the businesses who had their own lobbyists. How did you interact with those?

ANTHONY: Well, that was generally, if a lobbyist who came to me was a member of the Georgia Chamber we would join in with him if he asked for our 00:32:00support and we didnt take it on unless he asked us to.

SHORT: Hmm-mm. I bet you remember when there were only four or five lobbyists around the capital.

ANTHONY: Yes. Yeah, four or five. I guess now you got--

SHORT: 2,000.

ANTHONY: 2,000 or more! But I remember that the Southern Bell had a good lobbyist. Had one of the old timers--Bill Bryant.

SHORT: Bill Bryant. I remember Bill.

ANTHONY: Yeah.

SHORT: Bob Simonette.

ANTHONY: Bob Simonette, yes, he was with the Georgia Fire Company. He was a very fine young man and well-respected by the members of the General Assembly. And beyond that I cant recall the names, but we had a small group.

SHORT: Glenn Phillips.

ANTHONY: Glenn 'Cookie' Phillips--that was the nickname they gave him. Cookie Phillips was--at the Grady Hotel they had speaker that stayed there, Speaker George T. Smith. And most evenings you could go there and theyd have a liquor room setup and everybody would get in there and compare notes and drink some Jack Daniels. But that was a good program. So we always kept the liquor bottles filled up.

SHORT: I think I might have asked you this question, but Id like to rephrase it and ask you this. What does it take to be a good lobbyist? Personality?

ANTHONY: Well, yes, thats part of it and a sense of honesty. Theres no question about that. And we've got some lobbyists over there that I dont want to spend much time with. But anyway, the members of the General Assembly, they know whats going on with these people, so they just--

SHORT: What makes a good public servant?

ANTHONY: Well, Bob, thats a pretty tough question. Again, honesty, thats 00:35:00number one and--I would say thats the number one issue.

SHORT: Hmm-mm. What do you say to those who criticize lobbyists and accuse them of being something other than Sunday school teachers?

ANTHONY: Lets see, how about rephrasing that?

SHORT: How do you respond to criticism of the profession of lobbying?

ANTHONY: Well, thats a pretty hard question. Most of the lobbyists I would say now working these days--most of them are honest people and they want to do 00:36:00whats right. But theyve got to represent their clients. They've got to represent their companies, but the bad ones--the bad lobbyists, they cant make it. Theyre ineffective and they get the reputation thats damaging to them.

SHORT: Getting back to the pre-legislative forums which were so important at that time. Tell us about some of the participants and if you recall some of the issues they discussed on these tours.

ANTHONY: Well, theres a wide range of subjects and a lot of times people in North Georgia might have a different set of ideas than the ones in South 00:37:00Georgia. Taxation was always a big issue. They had--oh I dont know, that was a big one.

SHORT: Let me ask you this question. Tell us about some of the most effective legislators that you remember.

ANTHONY: Well, yes, a former state Senator named Roy Lambert from Madison, Georgia was an outstanding state Senator--a very honest, very compelling man. Also had Representative Harold Clark, who later went to the Supreme Court in 00:38:00Georgia. A very fine statesman. Hes a man who stood by his principles, and could not be swayed. But hed always be upfront with you when you were dealing with him. Those two come to mind as being exemplary good legislators.

SHORT: You worked over there during the famous feud between Lieutenant Governor Zell Miller and Speaker Murphy. How did you fair during that period?

ANTHONY: Well, personally, I did all right. You know, I dealt with both of them and Id be upfront. I would tell them if I was dealing with Murphy, or vice versa, you know.

SHORT: Glenn, as you look back over those years you spent over at the capitol, what do you think was your greatest accomplishment?

ANTHONY: My greatest accomplishment? Well, representing the businesses of Georgia, seeing heir programs enacted in the Georgia Legislature and killing the programs that would be not in the best interests. So, those were some of the things.

SHORT: Hmm-mm. What was your biggest disappointment?

ANTHONY: You know, I really cannot--I did not have any disappointment to tell you the truth. Over the years I pretty much had it my way to put it bluntly, but I didnt have any real disappointments. I feel like I served the business community of Georgia.

SHORT: Well, I think I can say without fear of contradiction that if all lobbyists were like you, than we wouldnt have the headlines we read far too often in the newspapers today. I want to ask you this final question. What 00:41:00advice do you have for those who might want to become professional lobbyists?

ANTHONY: I would say that they would have to have a bent toward the government or legislature. Personality is very good. Personality, honesty and--

SHORT: Communicative skills. Do they figure?

ANTHONY: Very important, yes, very important.

SHORT: How is the best way to communicate with a legislator? Is it privately in his home or in his office or is it the famous three martini lunches?

ANTHONY: I did a lot of my--I did a lot of those activities. I spent a lot of time at the Commerce Club with those so-called three martini lunches and most of us did a lot of business in the halls. In the evenings youd go out where youd see these good folks.

SHORT: Was it difficult to change votes when you needed them?

ANTHONY: No.

SHORT: Was it?

ANTHONY: No. I was very successful in my career over there. I cannot remember a single instance where I fell flat on my face on an issue. So, I feel very good about my career there.

SHORT: Well, you've had a--

ANTHONY: And those two--Im very, very proud of those two recommendations 00:43:00that the House and the Senate made on my behalf, commending me for my honesty and integrity. And as I mentioned earlier, one of the pros over there said hed never heard of anything like this--a lobbyist being honored.

SHORT: Hmm-mm.

ANTHONY: Most of them are looked upon as lurking in the dark with their topcoats and their top hat pulled down.

SHORT: Wearing those Italian suits.

ANTHONY: Thats right, wearing those $1,500 Italian suit and silk underwear.

SHORT: Well, Glenn, its been a pleasure having you and I want to thank you on behalf of Young Harris College and the Richard Russell Library, the University of Georgia and myself, for being with us.

ANTHONY: Well, thank you very much, Bob, and you know, weve been old friends since 1957.

SHORT: Thats right.

ANTHONY: So that goes back a long way.

SHORT: Been through a lot together.

ANTHONY: Yeah, we surely have.

SHORT: Shared a lot of good friends.

ANTHONY: Absolutely. Thank you very much.

SHORT: Thank you.