Interview with Ethel H. Johnson, Interview 1, July 11, 2022

William Breeding: Okay my name is William Breeding today is July the 12th, 2022 and I have on the line with me Mrs. Ethel H Johnson and Mrs. Johnson before we get started I would like for you to say and spell your name for me.

Ethel Johnson: All right, my name and then someone else is here to to talk to you and that's my daughter Jessica A. Johnson or Dr. Jessica A. Johnson

Breeding: Okay, normally I do one person at a time because what they are going to do is type this out. However, since we've gotten this for what I would like to do-- your daughter's name, would you say your name ma'am? 00:01:00E. Johnson: My daughter's name?

Breeding: I would like for her to say it.

E. Johnson: Okay, okay.

Jessica Johnson: Yes, my name is Jessica.

Breeding: Okay, Jessica, full name please.

J. Johnson: Jessica A. Johnson.

Breeding: Okay, is it possible, do you have two phones there?

J. Johnson: Uh, yes. We're using our landline right now.

Breeding: Okay, would you do this for me? Because I was prepared for, normally they like me to do them like one at a time, but since we've started that, we've already started, I'll go ahead and, um, you know, complete this one. And--

J. Johnson: Okay. Yeah, whatever you had to ask my mom was fine. I was just, she thought I might be able to add something to it. Well, I'll tell you.

Breeding: If we could do this, if you could take notes and when we get at a certain point 00:02:00that you would need to add something, it would probably be better if you were to kind of wait to the end of the interview or when we switch gears and then you talk so the person listening to the interview will be able to say, "Okay, this is another person talking."

J. Johnson: Okay, yeah, that's fine. We could wait to the end of the interview and then whatever I can add, you know, if there's something I could, I will.

Breeding: Okay, that's perfect. Okay, if you would get the phone back over to your mom.

E. Johnson: All right, here I am.

Breeding: Okay, I explained to your daughter that they will, when the University of, well, first of all, let me say this, I wanna thank you for allowing me to interview you and to be a part of the interview 00:03:00process. It is done through the Richard B. Russell Library of Political Research and Studies. They have a lot of recordings of other people, but not us. When we first started, or when I first started the project, what they were focused on was Hot Corner and the Bottom. After going through enough interviews I shared with them, there's a lot going out there. And Hot Corner and the Bottom may have been the original focus, but they told me to use my discretion. And so your name has come up with several people that I've talked with, and the impact you had on the community. So what will happen, they are going to record the interview, and they have a building that's three stories deep. And they 00:04:00will keep it there, and as the different mediums change, they're gonna transfer it to that medium. An example, twenty years ago, I'll be using a VHS tape. Then it went to the little smaller tape. Then it went to CD, now it's all done digitally. So what I will do, I need to get your address, and we can get that at the end. And I'm gonna send you two pieces of information. One of them is called the informed consent. And the other one is oral history gift agreement. And basically, one thing they wanna protect, that let's say, I just didn't pick up the phone and start calling someone. And then told them, look, I had their permission. So that will clear that. 00:05:00And then also your video, I mean, your audio will be edited under certain conditions. Not what the content of what you say, but let's say you say I saw Sally Smith shoot Johnny Jones. I'm just making up some names. They would erase that because they don't wanna be sitting in a courtroom saying, yeah, you knew about this, she told it, but y'all didn't say anything. Nor would they wanna put you in a position where someone could hear this and then come back with slander, that type of thing. But they will not be rearranging the content of what you're saying. Also, you will get a copy of the interview. I'll make sure you know you get that. And if there's something on there that you wish you hadn't said, 00:06:00that you can tell them "I want this part taken out" And then you also will retain part rights to this interview. So in essence, the university would not try to sell the interview for any kind of financial gain. It's all for research. So if somebody wants to know what was Athens like during a certain time period, they get a chance to hear from somebody that was there. They'll hear your version. And I tell people 100 years from now, there are probably maybe twenty-five people who are living right now that will be around. And so who is better to tell? Individual story 00:07:00than that person themselves. Okay, are you ready to get started?

Johnson: Yes.

Breeding: Okay, would you say your name and then would you spell it for me to make sure we have everything correctly?

Johnson: Ethel H. Johnson. Ethel is spelled E-T-H-E-L. And Johnson, J-O-H-N-S-O-N.

Breeding: Okay, thank you for that. Ms. Johnson, what I would like for you to do, I want you to tell me your birth date, tell me who your parents were, and then go from there to your earliest memories. A lot of people remember Pre-K, or head start, because 00:08:00that was the first time they were separated from their caretaker in a long, you know, for a good while. So if you'd tell me about the day you were born, again, I know you don't remember that date, but give me the details.

Johnson: All right, well, I was June 15, 1940, in Athens, Georgia, at the Athens Regional Hospital.

Breeding: Your parents?

Johnson: My parents were Jessie J-E-S-S-I-E, Stephens S-T-E-P-H-E-N-S, Hardeman, H-A-R-D-E-M-A-N. And my father was Walter Hardeman. W-A-L-T-E-R-H 00:09:00 -A-R-D-E-M-A-N.

Breeding: Okay.

Johnson: My earliest memory, I suppose, would have to be experiences I had at West Broad School in Athens. West Broad School is on West Broad. Or it was, because you probably know that a lot of changes took place with West Broad, but anyway, it was with West Broad School and what impressed me most was the spiritual part that went with West Broad. I do not know the names of certain people who were allowed to come to West Broad and actually teach of biblical principles, teach of Bible verses. The significance of them. So that's what I definitely remember 00:10:00most. And Maud Morton, who was the daughter of the Mortons in Athens. The Morton Theater people, well she was a part of that family, and she was my second grade teacher. And she had fond memories of how I was able to memorize Bible verses. And I'm wondering now how I was able to do that. As a child who was in second grade, but I was. So that's one of my basic memories. And also, I did not start school at six years of age. I started at five. And I was able to go to West Broad from the first grade through the fifth. And after the fifth grade, I was able to go to Reese Street Elementary School, which was on Reese Street. So that was a fond memory also, because 00:11:00I was able to really appreciate discipline. We had Mrs. Brown, who was principal, and she was a great disciplinarian. So I got a lot from her, from that, and I learned a lot. And of course, I went from Reese Street to Athens High and Industrial School, which was on Reese Street. And I learned a lot there, and I was a part of the first class that went through the twelfth grade, because high school was going through the eleventh grade until then. So I had, I think, a good educational background in terms of just the experiences that I had, and I don't think I would want to trade the experiences that I had. Do you have a question about those three? Because I realized I was more or less summarizing.

Breeding: Okay, I was going to 00:12:00ask you to go back and give me some details of, you know, that second grade experience and, you know, West Broad. But before you do that, do you remember Mrs. Brown's first name?

Johnson: No, I don't remember her first name. There were two Mrs. Browns. One was at West Broad. And one was at Reese Street, but I don't have their first names.

Breeding: Okay, okay. Now, West Broad went from what grades during that time?

Johnson: First grade through fifth.

Breeding: First to fifth. And Reese Street went from?

Johnson: Reese Street went from first through the, let's see, first. It was a little different because it actually served people who lived 00:13:00in Newtown, but West Broad didn't. West Broad served people who were on the other side of Athens. Let's see, the ninth grade, the eighth grade was where the high school started, so we had the eighth through the twelfth of my group, but before then it was the eighth through the eleventh.

Breeding: Okay, so you went from West Broad to Reese Street, and what grade did you start West Broad?

Johnson: I started from the first grade, but I was just five instead of six.

Breeding: Okay, and you went to the-- you stayed there the whole time?

Johnson: Yes.

Breeding: Okay, so I guess that would make Reese Street sixth and seventh grade. 00:14:00Johnson: For me, yes.

Breeding: For you, okay.

Johnson: Yes. But for other people on the other side of town, it would be from the first grade through the seventh.

Breeding: And I guess that's with the Westside?

Johnson: Yes, it was on the Westside.

Breeding: Okay. I know you said it West Broad, the spiritual aspect of it. Now, as a second grader, you remember, you remember that?

Johnson: Yes, I just remember, I remember getting awards for memorizing Bible verses. And I thought that that was really great. I just enjoyed that, you know. Getting storybooks, getting testaments. In fact, I kept the New Testament that I received from the time 00:15:00that I received it until the time that I was engaged to be married. And the only reason I misplaced it then was we were getting ready to get an apartment and we had to put everything that needed to be stored in a place so that after the wedding everything would be put in an apartment and during that transition something happened to my testament and I was really heartbroken because I had kept it through college everything that was just a prized possession because it represented memories and experiences.

Breeding: Okay I need to pause for one second. I'm looking at my battery supply and I don't want it to dwindle. Give me one second.

Johnson: Alright.

Breeding: Oh, okay. Alright. Let's see. 00:16:00You were-- give me some also experiences that you-- tell me what, give me a full schedule of let's say one day would have been at the West Broad School.

Johnson: Let's see one day could have been when everybody was excited because we were getting ready for what they referred to as concert and that meant that some people were going to be in drama some were and the drama would also consists of dance nand that kind of thing so that all of that was in the spring and so one day would be actually going to the classroom and the teachers visited us we didn't move around they moved around so it would mean that we would have, we didn't refer to it as english it was language but we know there's synonymous terms 00:17:00so we would have let's say language we would have arithmetic we would have some geography and those were the classes that I can remember then we would have rehearsals the rehearsals would be for whatever we were going to be in for the we could say the climax for the year and I can remember when I was in, I believe about the fourth grade we had a play and the play was about fairies and also we had the singing and everything but the play was going to be about fairies and the I guess you could say the message was if you believe in fairies, fairies believe in you and so we sang that song over and over and I can remember one of the cooks who was in the kitchen 00:18:00could hear the rehearsals and so she said to my mother and some people some other adults that yeah she believed in fairies because she heard that over and over again it was like (singing) "if you believe in fairies fairies believe in you" and there were so many different groups and I was a dewdrop fairy I can remember that very well and we had to have the costumes with the wings and all that so that was sort of like a typical day and it could have also included teachers actually taking us to what they call the gym. Athens had a gymnasium that was used for a multiplicity of things. It was used for athletic events, it was used for plays, all kinds of social events and everything so naturally you know the children had to 00:19:00practice and they needed to practice. in the facility that they were going to be involved with. So the teachers actually walked from West Broad all the way down to Reese Street where the high school gymnasium was and get us in there and get us with the practice and then we had to walk back. There was no such thing as a school bus transporting us. We actually walked. So when we as I look back I guess that had its advantages because we did need to get exercise and I'm sure the teachers needed the exercise too. But that sort of constitutes what a typical day could have been especially during the spring.

Breeding: Okay now I am going to stay at the West Broad school. How did you get to school?

Johnson: Well because I lived in the community so it was no big deal. 00:20:00a problem to walk. I lived on Fuller Street and you know Fuller Street is a section between Baxter and West Broad so it was no big deal for me to walk from 29 Fuller Street to the school.

Breeding: And about how far is that just to guess?

Johnson: Let's see about two basic streets from Fuller to the school. Because I can visualize it walking down the hill and then walking to Fuller Street and then to Miner Street. And part of West Broad's building faced Miner Street. So really we're talking about two streets over.

Breeding: Okay. Now, were you alone or you had other kids walking with you?

Johnson: Sometimes alone, sometimes other kids. You probably are familiar with Henrietta Finch 00:21:00Jackson, who is a part of the Jackson-McWhorterFuneral Home.

Breeding: I definitely am.

Johnson: Henrietta lived down the street from me, and sometimes we would walk to the school. She didn't start first grade with me, but before everything was over, she was living on Fuller Street. And she walked.

Breeding: Okay. Now, even though snowy and rainy and ice days that we have during the winter?

Johnson: It was not a problem. That's just the way we did it. Because my mother was not a driver, so she didn't drive a car. And so we walked.

Breeding: Okay. Describe the school for me.

Johnson: All right. The school. Was really and truly a real nice school. My mother and her 00:22:00siblings went to West Broad. They they went to the site and the school then was, I think, I think it was similar to what the Oconee Street School is on the East side. And you probably know something about Oconee Street with Annie Wallace.

Breeding: Okay. All right.

Johnson: But anyway, the. They built West broad after my mother and those were at the former West broad, the structure, and it was all brick. And I think that it's a part of a controversy now because the powers that be would really like to have it torn down, but it's really, it would be awful. It is a great structure. All they need to do is go in and gut it and put technology and other things in it. But as far as the structure is concerned, 00:23:00it's solid. It's red brick, and it still is. And if you walk, I mean, if you drive by, you will notice that the entrance is facing Miner Street, and the back is facing West Broad. And many people thought that-- that was not the way it should have been situated. And I don't know why they decided to do it that way, but they did. But it's really and truly up for a lot of discussion now. A lot of people think that it should not be torn down. They should just let people use imagination and use it for a lot of other things. So we don't know what the outcome is going to be. But it is not a structure that is-- is worthy of being torn down. It's just like Clarke Central. If you will know anything about Clarke Central, Clarke Central was a $1 million 00:24:00building way back when, when a million dollars really meant something. And they built it with the idea that no youngster would have to go outside for anything. Well, that went well, but then all of a sudden, everything changed because the population changed and all of that. So they knew that it was too good a structure to tear it down, and it is better than the structure they built for city shelves. So those are examples of how structures can be different. But anyway, I'm hopeful that they will be able to do something to salvage West Broad, because my daughter went to Alps Road, and I was so hopeful that she could have an experience in West Broad but she couldn't because that was the year that she went to first grade, they decided not to have first grade 00:25:00at West Broad, so she went to Alps Road So that's an example of I guess I just had sentimental values to the school.

Breeding: Okay well, after the interview, I'll share some some things that I know about West Broad. And since the interview is not about me, I want to stay on track with you. All right. Let's see. Okay, now we're leaving West Broad and we're going to Resse Street. Tell me a typical day as well even before we go there. No, we're going to stay on that task. We're at Reese Street. Give me a typical day there.

Johnson: All right, a typical day at Reese Street. That was a day that we see where we had the language and we had arithmetic, we had geography, we had history, or some might refer to it as 00:26:00social studies. And I think we went through every all of those subjects every day. So a typical day would consist of something that we embrace every day with those particular subjects. I was a person who liked to get my work, but I also liked to talk. And they say that I got that from my mother because my mother was someone who really, really liked to talk. She didn't meet anyone who was a stranger. So it was hard for, it was really a challenge for them to keep me quiet in the classroom. But I got my work. So a typical day could be when somebody would say, "Okay, Ethel, you need to stop talking so much now. Let's get your work done," or something like that. And outside we had fun because we had fundraisers. 00:27:00And the fundraisers were for the purpose of buying something that youngsters could appreciate and enjoy. And I can remember that we sold candy, and the candy money would go for things, and one day, we had enough money to have a merry-go-round, that was the type of, I guess you could say, recreational vehicle that a youngster would get on, and the vehicle would go around and around. We were just excited because our money paid for it, and we were able to get on that and go around and around. So, a typical day would include that after we got it. Let's see, what else? Well, on Fridays, you probably remember Ms. Holmes. You probably remember Doc Holmes. Right. So, his wife taught 00:28:00history, or we could say social studies. Right. And I think we look forward to her letting us give social, give news reports, and sometimes they got out of hand, but I think as I look back on it, I think maybe we should have looked more at the current events, other than the current events in the neighborhood, because it got to be a comedy sometimes, because when the youngsters would talk about what was going on in the neighborhood and what we would call the hood now, but I think a typical day took me from where I was that morning when I went to school until where I was that evening or afternoon, and I would go home having learned something. And I definitely learned. And so the typical day just consist of 00:29:00my learning and also just really enjoying other youngsters. I really and truly liked going to school. I did not like the summertime when we didn't have much to do. I would make sure that I went to the library and got books to read. But I enjoyed being with other youngsters because I did not have sisters and brothers. I am an only child. So, that's-- Hopefully, that answers your question about a typical day. It definitely consists of learning as far as I was concerned.

Breeding: Okay. Now, let's go to a typical day when you made it to high school.

Johnson: All right. Well, typical day when I made it to high school. Let's see. I actually did all right in the eighth grade in high school. because really 00:30:00and technically you know eighth grade is not high school but that's the way they did it and right and so the ninth grade was when I didn't do the way I should have done I don't know what I think I did not respond the way I should have to certain teachers some teachers just have techniques that are not good for certain students so I didn't do that well so then I was I spent more time at church in the ninth grade while while I was there so then my grandmother told my mother she was going to have to keep me out of the street and the street was going and coming to junior church at Ebenezer so that my mother had to actually help me understand that I was going to have to do better in school. So I decided 00:31:00that I was and so when I got in the tenth grade I had a goal. My goal was to smash all of those C's or whatever and make sure that I made A's and B's and I did that. And the late Martha Swinton I think was gave me a lot of typical days. And it wasn't that she was zeroing in on me to just say that I was one of her favorite students and make sure I was doing what I should do. But she had so much enthusiasm in the classroom that when I sat down and listened to her, I just wanted to do better and better. So my grades soared. And when I was graduated, I was number five in a class one one hundred. In spite of the fact that I didn't do well in the ninth grade. So I think I enjoyed English, really, really enjoyed English, because I liked 00:32:00being creative. I liked learning about grammar. I learned everything in the tenth grade that I should have learned in the ninth grade, because I had different teachers. So I enjoyed high school as a result of making a change in the approach to the way I was going to do whatever I was going to do, because my goal was to become an educator. So that's, hopefully you got something from what I said about that. And you see how a child can change from one type of situation to another. So it just depends upon the approach that is being used with that particular child.

Breeding: Yes, that was going to be one of my questions, but you've already answered it. Did a teacher make a difference?

Johnson: Yes, a teacher can make a difference. I know they did with me. 00:33:00In fact, I was so glad that I was able to tell Martha Slinton that because she passed away. And before she passed away, she came up here to attend teacher's retirement. And Jessica just just couldn't believe that Martha Swinton had taught me because Jessica thought that everybody who taught me had passed away. And so she was it was kind of humorous. But anyway, she got a chance to meet Ms. Swinton, too. But I was able to tell her and thank her for being such a good teacher. And the good part is she wasn't playing favorites. I just caught what she-- I caught her enthusiasm.

Breeding: Okay. Can you describe graduation day when you knew that your high school career was over?

Johnson: Yes. I was-- I had mixed emotions because 00:34:00I wanted to go to college, and I did. I was thankful that the Lord blessed me to go. I also wanted to stay in high school a little bit longer. So as I said, I had mixed emotions, and the last day of school was when we had our breakfast. Graduation was over, and we had breakfast. And I remember the late Reverend Jack Billups told us that that was the last day the class would ever be together. And that was sad, because that was true, because the entire class was never together again, because somebody was always out. But the last day was really, as I said, I had mixed emotions, and we had what we called "class night." So I guess I'm not answering your question directly, because you said the very last day, and I'm giving you more than the last day.

Breeding: That 00:35:00time period, not just-- keep going.

Johnson: Okay, that time period. Well, we had what we called class night, and I won't forget that because at class night, we had a situation where it was really make-believe. For example, I was a person who was, I guess you could say, someone who liked to gossip. Now, I had become an adult, and I think I had merit to this principle. But anyway, I liked to gossip, and Florine, one of my classmates, was someone who liked to gossip, too. So I can remember the letter that I wrote her, and it started with, "Dear Florine," and then I would tell her about everything that was going on with everybody that we had gone to school with, and that was fun. And let's see, what else? 00:36:00we did that I think was fun, but I know that was one of the major ones. Well, getting ready for college was fun, too. The late Walter Allen was, no, he's not the late Walter Allen. He's still alive, but I'm thinking about his--

Breeding: Walter Allen Sr.

Johnson: Right, right. Well, anyway, he was also a good teacher. In fact, he was more or less a counselor, because he made sure that everybody in the band had a goal, and he made sure that everybody in the band who wanted higher education was going to have a chance because he was able to network. And so I was in the band, and he made sure-- in fact, I can remember him sitting beside me, helping me complete my 00:37:00college application. I can remember that very, very well. And also remember while I was in high school, my senior year, someone from the-- let's see, what did we call it then? It was at the--it was at Rock Spring Homes where we had the Y team. And so, the person who was actually director of the Y team wanted someone to come and work as his secretary, someone from the senior class. And my teacher, Ms. Goosby, decided that I was capable of that. So she nominated me, and I got a job working. And so after school, I was able to go to the Y and work at the Y as a 00:38:00secretary. And at that time, as I look back, I can think about what a good experience that was because I was able to demonstrate everything that I had been learning in terms of high school. I want to be a business education major, and I was able to actually apply just about everything that I had learned in that particular situation at the Y. For example, back in the day, I guess we could say back in the dark ages, when we use the stencils machines, I was able to be creative enough to make my corrections and everything would go just right. And actually the adults who were part of the Y program were able to appreciate the way I did my work. And Mr. Edwards talked about it a lot too. I know you remember Mr. Homer Edwards 00:39:00and he talked about how I had used my ability that particular year. So that was a part of it. So my senior year was a great year. I had a, I had a good time and then I had time to anticipate going to college and then I went to college and I was successful. The Lord blessed me to be successful in college. So I think that the whole year was really a good year, but I still would have wanted maybe another year or so in high school. I guess that was for the recreational part and all, but I enjoyed it.

Breeding: Okay, now before we go to college and you did a very good wrap-up and gave us a lot and I almost feel like I can close my eyes and actually see you going through those different stages. Let me ask, the name of your high 00:40:00school was?

Johnson: Athens High and Industrial. You know, the industrial was to distinguish-- well, maybe I shouldn't say this, but I think it's true. The industrial part was to distinguish the Black high school from the predominant, well, from the high school, the white high school, because, see, both of them were Athens High originally.

Breeding: Okay.

Johnson: And so the Athens High and Industrial was the Black school.

Breeding: So you never went to an integrated school at those?

Johnson: No, the reason was they did not permit that. They did not. My mother probably would have sent me, but that wasn't the case. But now I taught at the integrated school, but they did not have that. All 00:41:00the Black children, Black students, went to Athens High and Industrial, and the white students went to Athens High. And I think one of the reasons they built Athens High and Industrial up on, well, actually up on the hill on the west side of town, it prevented the white children or white students from clashing with the Black students because we did not want, the Black students did not want to share the sidewalk with the white students and the whites didn't want to share them with us. So it was something every day about that bumping and bumping and bumping. The mother stopped my participating in it because she told me I had to go Reese Street home instead of Broad Street because she didn't want me in any fights or anything. So they finally solved the 00:42:00problem by just letting the whites go where it is now and letting the Blacks go up on that hill.

Breeding: Okay, now we're going to go back to elementary school.

Johnson: All right.

Breeding: And I want you to tell me about the neighborhood. You as a little girl, you come out of the house. Other than going to school, what are you doing? Tell me about some of the games that you played. This is going to be very vital because a lot of our kids now, the only thing they know are video games.

Johnson: We played jump rope, hopscotch, we played games where you would have a circle and everybody in the circle would be going around and around and singing all kinds of songs like "Little Sally Walker," "Sitting in a Saucer", maybe, let's 00:43:00see, I'm trying to think of some of the songs that we sang. I might think about them a little bit later, but anyway, we would sing and we would go around and around in circles and actually before we would go into school every morning, the late Miss Ellington who was a very great pianist, would get on that piano and she would get some kind of march. It could be "Glory, Glory, Hallelujah" or any kind of march that had a rhythm to it and everybody got in line and we marched in the classroom. So that was something that we enjoyed doing.

Breeding: Okay. Now you, uh--

Johnson: As far as the adults in the community were concerned--

Breeding: Wait before you go there. We're going back to those games. Now I know you played Jackstone, didn't you?

Johnson: I 00:44:00played Jackstone, but not that much. But I did play them. Yeah, I played them.

Breeding: Duck, Duck, Goose? Was that around during your time?

Johnson: No, we didn't play Duck, Duck, Goose.

Breeding: Oh, okay.

Johnson: We didn't play that.

Breeding: Hide-and-go-seek?

Johnson: Yes, we played hide-and-go-seek.

Breeding: Okay, now tell me the objective of hide-and-go-seek, because somebody's going to be listening to this, and they're going to be clueless. So tell me what hide-and-go-seek was about.

Johnson: Well, with us, it was just about using our wits to find someone, because the people, the children would hide. And once they got hidden, the other children would be ready to find them, and you had to-- they weren't going to be in the most obvious places. And so that meant 00:45:00that the ones who had to do the searching had to really and truly use wits in order to find them, and that's the way we played it. Oh, and we played, let's see. school, too, where each step represented a grade. And we put rocks in our hands and closed them. And the person in a grade would have to tap on the hand. And if the rock was in that hand, the person made a grade. If the rock was not in the hand, the person stayed in the grade. So we played that, too.

Breeding: Okay. And the goal was to graduate from high school.

Johnson: Yes. Yes.

Breeding: Okay. Now, I interrupted you, and you were telling me about what the adults were doing. It was right after you talked about Miss Ellerton, the pianist.

Johnson: Yes. Right. Well, the adults were 00:46:00people who were looking out for children. They made sure that there were no fights or anything, or, you know, they would break them up. Be sure the children would go on home. That's what they did. I know that the adults on Fuller Street definitely looked to see who was doing what and be ready to help the parents understand what was going on.

Breeding: Okay. Now I'm a little bit younger than you, but I remember, I remember that, um, when they make this statement now that it takes a village?

Johnson: Yes, yes, right, and I think that the village was in the neighborhood at Fuller Street, and let's see, we had Fuller Street, and we had Wadell, Henderson. In fact, our 00:47:00property faced two streets, Fuller and Henderson. And so, with these different streets, you had people on them, and they were watching to see what was going on, to try to get children to behave, especially when parents encouraged it.

Breeding: Okay. I remember during my upbringing, I consider myself a person of the projects. In Greene County, there was a place called Canaan. Now, people in Canaan would say, "No, no, you weren't," but my dad chose to build his house right on the line of the projects, and he said, "You can't teach people 00:48:00if you can't live with them."

Johnson: Well, he had a point.

Breeding: Right. And so, back in the day when I could jump a little bit, I could take off running and jump, and I probably would land in somebody's living room. I was that close. And when they said, "It takes a village," I mean, basically, all the adults had authority. Yeah, right. If you did something, it wouldn't be uncommon, when you got home, your parents knew about it, and you probably-- I remember one getting my third whipping.

Johnson: Oh, really? Well, I tried to behave, 'cause I didn't like those whippings.

Breeding: Well, I can remember two in my life, and so I didn't like 'em either. And the last one, I couldn't do nothing about. But, um-- I feel I had, you know, of course I had my birth mother, but I 00:49:00feel I had four or five mothers, really, there.

Johnson: Yes, right. I can understand that.

Breeding: And how was your setting? Was it anything similar, or?

Johnson: Well, as I told you, I'm an only child, but mother had friends on the street, and so that was just like having a sister on the street, a mother's sister, and then it's just like having an aunt on the street. And I can remember one lady named Miss Carrie, and most of us called her Ma Carrie, and she was just like a grandmother. And so if I had gotten into anything, she would have been there to get me straight and to let my mother know about it.

Breeding: Right. Well, that's what I meant when I said I had several mothers, because it wasn't something I wasn't able to give my children.

Johnson: Okay, you didn't have 00:50:00the people in the community.

Breeding: Right, the times changed, and yeah, that's one thing I really wish that I could have provided with him.

Johnson: Yes.

Breeding: Okay, now that we've gone through games and school, let's go to college.

Johnson: All right.

Breeding: So what college did you attend and? Give me any details that you can remember.

Johnson: All right, I went to Albany State College, which is now Albany State University. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. I worked in the library, in the catalog department, for my freshman, sophomore, and junior years. My senior year, I did not work at all, because I was able to get a scholarship. My senior year, academic scholarship, my senior year, because I did get the title 00:51:00of Miss Albany State College, and that was a blessing. And I got it because I wanted to get, I wanted to help my mother with my college expenses. So I did that, and then I was, I'm an AKA now, but I did not go all the way through AKA, my Sophomore year, because Athens was not oriented toward the Greeks. All we knew was sorority and fraternity as far as they related to the University of Georgia. So when I went to Albany State, I did not know, and the Lord blessed me to make good grades. And as a result of that, I was able to be invited to become an AKA. Well, I did not know what that was exactly. I knew that it was a big-time organization, but I 00:52:00didn't know the whole thing. So I was invited to a program, a night program, and then the invitation said, "wear your black dress and come to the thing." So I became an ivy leaf before I realized it. And so at the end, I got a scholarship for my sophomore year. So, I got two scholarships. Now, Albany State is giving more scholarships now because I think the funds are different, but they were not during that time. So, I was able to get two, and then I was able to get some small ones. But by working, I was able to actually be sure that my mother did not have too much of a burden on keeping me in college. Let's see, what else about Albany State?

Breeding: What was your major? 00:53:00Johnson: Business education. But anyway, I enjoyed, I think I enjoyed my senior year most of all because I had a roommate who was always into something. But she got into it, and she got out of it. And so we laughed about it. We laughed a lot about it because the prediction was she was going to get married and have a daughter. I was going to get married and have a daughter, and my daughter was going to take on her personality, and her daughter was going to take on mine. I was more on the serious side, and she was more on the fun side. So that was fun my senior year because I didn't let her get me into trouble, but I was always seeing what was going on with whatever she was doing. And I had a different roommate for freshman, 00:54:00sophomore, junior year, and it was because my freshman roommate and I didn't get along that well, so we knew that we weren't going to be roommates anymore. But during that time, I made friends with other folks. There was another person who wanted to be my roommate, so she and I were roommates my sophomore year. Well, she came back to college a little bit later, so by the time she got back in my junior year, I had another good friend who wanted to be my roommate. So I got along with everybody, for the most part, except my first year, and I guess I had to learn how to adjust since I was an only child. So I didn't have to argue with another sibling. And so, that's how that was. Let's see what else was going on at Albany State.

Breeding: Now, before you go on, how did your prediction come out?

Johnson: Oh, it didn't come out the way it started because my daughter, Jessica, 00:55:00is more or less the kind of person who is serious, spiritual, but she has a good time. She's more than a nobody. Nobody in this world enjoyed college more than Jessica did, because I have laughed with her. I said, "If you never step another time as an AKA, you've stepped enough. If you never step another time in band, you have stepped enough." So she had a good time, but she believed in getting her work. Actually, I got blessed about that too. I got to drop back. You wanted me to tell you about my thing first, but Jessica actually got a scholarship to go to North Carolina Central University for her whole four years. And that was a blessing in disguise, because I had no idea. I wanted her to get a scholarship. And we were, 00:56:00she had one from Clark, and she had one from-- I can't think of this other one right now, but my cousin went to Clark, and you know who my cousin was. I'll go back into that a little bit later. But anyway, actually, Jessica really and truly enjoyed college. So I did too, but I did in a different way. I did not want to, be on and Ivy for my sophomore year, and I read in Seventeen magazine that if your heart is not in a sorority, don't go in it. So I dropped out in spite of the fact that they paid my tuition my sophomore year. But then when I became an adult, I decided that I was going to get back in it. And you probably know the late Connie Hill. She was on my case about getting back in. And so I did. But so I let me see what else was going 00:57:00on at Auburn State. But I was in the band one year. I was in the choir. And being in the choir was a lot of fun. Did you ever know the late-- I think he might have passed-- John Chadwell?

Breeding: No, I do not. I don't know.

Johnson: Okay. Well, anyway, he was choir director. And at the end of our freshman year, the choir went on tour. And the tour came through Athens. And so you-- do you know Mary Ann Haney Horton?

Breeding: No, I don't.

Johnson: You do?

Breeding: I don't.

Johnson: You don't. All right, well Mary Ann--

Breeding: Tell me about her. Is she still living?

Johnson: Yes. Well, anyway, she's a good soloist, and she played clarinet. So she was in the choir. And you probably knew Milton Bostick, we called him Bill King.

Breeding: I remember Bostick real well because 00:58:00when I came to UGA during the summer of one year, I stayed at the Kappa House and Bostick was, you know, running everything.

Johnson: Yes, I remember. I'm sure he was. All right. Well, I'm sure you were. Well, anyway, you know, we called him Bill King. He had two names, Bill King, those were his nicknames because, you know, his grandparents were kings. And I think his grandmother just decided to call him Bill, I'm not sure about that. But anyway, actually, Bill was in the choir, Mary Ann was in the choir, and I was in the choir. So we didn't necessarily have voices of solo caliber, but because we were in the choir, we were drawing cards for people to come to hear Albany State perform. And so that was fun, it was fun because Mr. Chadwell got up and just told about each 00:59:00one of us and what we were doing. And that was fun. I think my mother was responsible for a lot of folks being there because she really publicized the fact that Albany State is coming through. So Albany State did that two years straight and I was able to travel with the choir. So that was fun and I was in the dramatic club. And I was in the play called "The Family Upstairs" and my character was Little Annabelle. You probably know something about that play, but it was sort of like a comedy. So that was fun. Let's see what else was fun at Albany State. Let me see. Well when it was time for student teaching, it was fun because I did student teaching at Monroe High School right there in Albany. And it was fun. Now that I look back at it, more so than it was 01:00:00when I first stepped on the ground of Monroe High School. Well, for one thing, the Monroe High School was like a Blackboard jungle. And I was a little concerned about going into the and Dr. Fowler was one of the professors who was responsible for transporting some of the students to their sites for student teaching. And the majority had to go out of town to do student teaching, but they made sure that the students who had the potential to represent Albany State well right in the community were going to be able to go to these high schools and actually perform dance. So anyway, on the first day, Dr. Fowler had transported, I think Mary Ann, the person I mentioned a few minutes ago, was 01:01:00one of the persons he had transported or was about to. But when we got to the site of Monroe, and I saw those big guys who were football players, and the rumor had been that they had threatened to throw one of our star football players into the Flint River. And you know the Flint River is really close to Albany State. And so I decided that I could not go in that building. And Dr. Fowler said, "Ms. Hardeman, I want you to add ten years to your life. Get out of this car and walk on in." And it was funny. It's funny now, but it wasn't funny then. So I did get out of the car. And I think the football fellas thought that I was a student. That was one thing. And they thought Dr. Fowler was my father. So that let me get into the building. And so I got in the building, and then 01:02:00a leader of the gang, for some reason, liked me. And so as a result of that, he wasn't going to bother me, and he wasn't going to let the others. So I had a successful year. But they had told us, and I-- I don't know whether this is still good warning or not, but they had told us if a student hit us or anything like that, we were going to have to hit back because if we didn't, we would have lost control of the class. So I was poised to be sure that nobody hit me, and I can remember with my typing book, I had it in my hand one day. And one student was trying, getting ready to challenge me, but I think he thought better of it when he saw me with my belt typing book, because I was going to let him have it with that. But anyway, that was a good, the whole thing was a good experience. And at the end, we, I know I got a gift at the end, and we had a chance 01:03:00to tell about our experiences, and some of the fellows even thought it was funny when I said I was scared of them that first day. So that was fun. And it was also a good experience because I did make an A in my student teaching. So I did do something right while I was there.

Breeding: What year was that?

Johnson: That was 1960 and 61.

Breeding: Oh, okay. Continue.

Johnson: Pardon?

Breeding: I said continue. I didn't mean to.

Johnson: Okay. Well, I do know one thing, at graduation, it was fun and it was inspirational to hear the choir sing hallelujah because I really felt like saying hallelujah. I made it through and so they sang the hallelujah chorus so I enjoyed that.

Breeding: Okay, I know how you feel when I graduated. I stood up after 01:04:00they did all the salutations, I stood up for O Laude.

Johnson: Oh did you? (laughing) Well I made, I graduated magna cum laude and I should have, I would have graduated cum laude but the problem was one of the teachers wanted me to take a class under him. It was more or less an inspirational thing, motivational thing. And I don't think I put myself into it as much as I should have. So I made a B in there when I should have been making an A in there. And that dropped my whole average down. So instead of Summa Cum Laude, I made Magna Cum Laude.

Breeding: Now, you did hear what I said, right? O Laude.

Johnson: I heard, O Laude. (laughing) So you were probably having a good time with the Kappas weren't you?

Breeding: No. In fact, my first two years, 01:05:00I was "A", I mean, I was "C", "B", every once in a while. I got a one "F", I jumped into, somebody convinced me that botany was identifying flowers. And I grew up, you know, my grandmama and my mom were in the flower garden. I did not know botany was the biology of plants. I said this is a rose, this is a lily, I think this one over here is something. I didn't know, I had no idea. But my junior and senior year I just decided I refused to ever see a "C" again. I made one C and I was extremely upset. Because I made all "A's" on all of my major tests, projects, 01:06:00because I was in education early childhood and my problem was I was an athlete and I told the school not to tell them that I'm an athlete and that's the first thing they did. When I got there you would have thought Michael Jordan was stepping in the school and they would listen to me just by my voice but as far as the teacher a lot of times they you know he had to tell them twice but anyway my project we had eight writing assignments and we had to let's say write a letter of invitation one to interview someone persuasive informative different writings and on one of them I had some of my teammates football teammates come 01:07:00and the my let me back up, my co-- my co-students, my peers said man that went real good why don't could you get one of the athletes to come and they decide who they wanted I went to them and boy I think I owed everybody on the team uh some kind of favor and they brought you know they came and the school was just elated. But when but when I went back to check to see was the uh my not my advisor but the teacher of that class was she aware that the computer made a mistake and she said no that wasn't a mistake and I'm like wait a minute I made A's in everything I think I might have had one "B" in something and she said you did not give the little girls an incentive the 01:08:00only people that came were football players oh and I wanted to say wait a minute that had nothing to do with me because I did my own and those were for friends and I was you know I was ready to go to the dean you know, da da da da da and my dad said no you might see her in grad school.

Johnson: Well he had a point

Breeding: Yeah but I was bitter for a long time. And then I thought hey the little girl was more excited for them little boys the little boys after they got used to seeing an athlete for a different athlete they got a little jealous the girls always have. So I'm gonna go back a little bit to your time in Athens in school, and you can you don't have to go in detail but what organizations 01:09:00were you a part of?

Jpohnson: In high school?

Breeding: From elementary to high school.

Johnson: You know, well I was always singing in choir in elementary and high school. I sang in choir in high school at least two years. And let's see what else. Well I was in the future business leaders, future secretaries of America. I was president of that my senior year. Let's see what else was I in. I was in the National Honor Society. And let's see what else. I'm not looking at the yearbook right now. But I was in the National Honor Society. And let's see what else. Those were the main ones.

Breeding: Okay. Now, I noticed that 01:10:00you said you were in the band at Albandy for one year.

Johnson: Right. I wasn't that interested in it. And that's why I just got out after a year.

Breeding: Okay, because I was going to say, when you go to Albany State, that's one of the top bands, I think, in the nation. And that's like being on a national championship football team with historical Black colleges.

Johnson: Right, right. But no, I just, I enjoyed it that year, but then I just didn't want to be in it. I think I got tired of going to practice and all that.

Breeding: Yeah, I was going to say the practice ritual is you literally got to have to be an athlete.

Johnson: That's true.

Breeding: Because they, you, you go through a lot of, they-- 01:11:00what can I say? You have to really be in shape and it takes a lot of time.

Johnson: It does. It does. You see, I was working for three of my college years.

Breeding: Okay. Now, you're out of college. When did you get married? Where did you meet your--

Johnson: I got married in 1964.

Breeding: Okay. So--

Johnson: And so, I got out of college in 1961 and I went to graduate school. And I got out of that in 1963. And I got married, as I said, in 1964.

Breeding: Now, where did you go to graduate school?

Johnson: North Carolina Central University.

Breeding: Why there?

Johnson: Well, actually, I thought about it because 01:12:00the president of North Carolina Central University and our president were friends. And so there was that connection there that you know you hear more about and so that was why I did in fact someone tried to get me to go to Columbia and mother didn't go along with that because she didn't like the idea of being in my being in New York, so I think she figured that a school such as North Carolina Central would work better for me so that's why I went. And I got a scholarship to go to but that was the other part.

Breeding: Okay, and when did you, you got married in 1964?

Johnson: Yes.

Breeding: Okay tell me about that 01:13:00special day?

Johnson: Well my mother prepared the worst breakfast I had ever had that particular day. It was kind of funny. And my cousin, my little second cousin, really and truly was looking forward to being the ring bearer because he didn't understand, he would go around saying that he was going to get married. He thought that meant getting married because he was going to take the ring down the aisle. So, on the day, I mean, he just went on and on and he was so excited. On the day of the wedding, he was playing with some other cousins and tripped. And he did something to his ankle, couldn't walk. So that meant that his grandmother couldn't even go to my wedding. She had to stay at home with him. And his mother was one of the planners 01:14:00of the wedding, so she had no choice but to be there. So that was it, and also the little girl, who was a flower girl, was in it. But she did some, they say always the children are the stars of the wedding, because people just like to see what they're going to do. So this little girl went down the aisle, and she got to a certain point, and she wanted to adjust her gloves. And I think she said to herself, it matters not who's looking, I'm going to adjust my gloves. So she was adjusting her gloves, and then she was going on down the aisle a little bit more. And I had a Catholic wedding, and so the priest was beckoning her to come on. And so eventually, she got all the way down there, but those were two things that were really, really funny. And I had a Catholic wedding because my ex-husband was a Catholic. And you 01:15:00notice I say "ex" and then "was" when he passed away not this past Father's Day but Father's Day before that. But we got divorced before then. But anyway, let's see what else about the wedding. As I said, it was a Catholic wedding and I am a member of Ebenezer. So that meant that the Ebenezer folk had to go to St. Joseph's to see my wedding. And that was funny, and one of my friends said that Dr. Mulroy, who was the priest, was definitely tired that night because they didn't understand a lot of what he said. But he had to give what they called the, they called it the low mass, because if he had done the high mass, most of the people, they wouldn't have understood what was going on, and the, it just wouldn't have worked. 01:16:00But anyway, it worked, and we had to have a compromise afterwards, because my mother did not go along with the wedding being at St., at Downtown, but she knew that she had to go along with it, because if she had not-- we would have had to have two weddings, because the Catholics used to be strict, and the marriage would not have been honored if we had just gotten married in Ebenezer. So Mother talked about it, and then so the compromise was, she would go along with that if the receptions were not on the grounds of the Catholics. And so we had the reception at the VFW, and that was a big thing at that particular time. [laughs] [end] So that's how that was. But it was very, very interesting, the way it all went down.

Breeding: Okay. What 01:17:00I would like to do is do a second part of the interview, because we hadn't gotten to, you know, your teaching career in Athens, and that's how I heard about you from people who I admire, and some that I worked with that was telling me that, look, I had to interview Ms. Johnson. If I didn't, they would say my job is incomplete. And so, on part one, we've gotten you through, we got you out of Athens, to Albany, out of college, with your masters, we even got you married. So the next interview we'll do and you and your daughter get together and start thinking about some 01:18:00of the things I didn't ask that you would like to be known. And we're gonna focus on education. I'll listen to the recording that we did today and there may be a few more questions, but I do appreciate it. Okay, back with you, and I was mentioning the Joy Village School. I'm not quite sure what their time frame or opening and all, but at the school there's a room that talks about education in Athens prior to integration, so your name was mentioned. Now, what I would like to, so now the interview, this portion of it is officially over. Is there anything that you want to add to this part that you haven't already? Not right now. Okay, well I'm 01:19:00going to turn the recorder off.