Interview with Lemuel LaRoche, January 12, 2015

00:00:09Alexander Stephens: It is January 20th, 2015. My name is Alexander Stephens, and we are in Athens, Georgia. Could you introduce yourself, please?

00:00:17Lemuel LaRoche: My name is Lemuel LaRoche, also known in the Athens community as "Life the Griot," or just "Life."

00:00:25Stephens: All right. Thanks for taking time to talk with me today.

00:00:27LaRoche: Thank you for inviting me out.

00:00:30Stephens: To start with, could you tell me a little bit about where you grew up?

00:00:34LaRoche: Okay. I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. I was born August 4th, 1976, actually a home birth. New York--it shaped my ideas of the world, and it was in--'76. So in the '70s there was that crucial moment--life. New York, I mean, I was a New York baby. You know, my father was a very--he was a poet, and he was an altruist. He was a very warm spirit, you know what I mean? Everywhere I went with him, people always loved him, people always respected him. Everywhere we went, everybody knew his name. So I grew up in, I would say, a community-type environment where they believed in the principles of it takes a village to raise a child. So it was a community setting where the community worked together, and it was more of a--it was an Islamic, from an Islamic background. But that was my upbringing when growing up, and I got a chance to learn to speak Arabic, a little bit of Hebrew, and I had teachers from Sudan, Morocco. So it was a community setting where, you know, they realized that it was a need to develop the next generation in a way where we can--you know, we see a lot of the stuff that's going on in the world today, but where we can learn to respect each other and love each other, and we really practiced that as a community. So that--you know, that was the foundation for a lot of my upbringing. And, you know--regular guy--went to school, you know. I didn't get into much trouble, but I got into my trouble, my fair share. Always kind, always, you know, just a people's person. That's what my parents used to always say: You was very kind as a kid, you always wanted to share and help. And I remember my mom gave me a--she gave me a letter that I wrote, I think when I was eight years old. And I was talking about I want to be a farmer. When I grow up, I want to be a farmer. Here I am in New York--you know, buildings, no trees, but I'm talking about I want to be a farmer. And so she was just like--I was always that type of kid that was just about helping, you know, and I think I took a lot of that from my father--because he was always about helping and bringing the peace and trying to avoid conflict in any ways. So I can go on, but that's a little bit about me.

00:03:25Stephens: What was your father's name?

00:03:26LaRoche: His name was William Taylor.

00:03:28Stephens: And he was a poet in the '60s?

00:03:30LaRoche: Yeah, he was a poet. I don't think I ever got--I don't think his work ever got out. My mom--I remember when I started, I remember reading his work when my mom finally said, "Look, I want you to read some of your father's work." Because I was kind of, you know, I'm a student of the '80s when hip-hop came in. So I was always--trying to, you know, do a little rap here and there, oh-dat-dat-dat (mimics rap) and my mom was just like, "Look, I want you to see some of your father's work. I want you to see that, you know, your father was a poet. He wrote a lot about life. He wrote a lot about the world." And she would let me read some of the poems that he wrote to her, and I was like, "Wow." My pop was a, he was a serious poet, like--so that, I think when I learned he was a poet, it put me into the mind frame that I can get a little deeper. I can reach a little deeper within myself than just kind of scratch the surface on the things you see and the things you want to talk about, but start to write from within. And learning about my father's work, that's what kind of drew me inward as a poet, and it made me just kind of--he showed me, like in a lot of my poems, I make a lot of reference to my father and how he would walk me through certain communities and say, "Look, look around. You know, look, you know, you have problems and you have solutions. Look around. Look at all this stuff. How do you think it got here? It didn't just happen. You know what I mean? It was policies. It was structure. Things--it got here." And he would always say, "You will have a role to play, whether you're going to be part of the problem or you're going to be part of the solution. We see the direction the world is going. You can play your part to bring the world towards its destruction or heal the world in some kind of way." And so he was always about planting those seeds, and as a kid, you don't get it. You see it. You hear it. You hear it. People are like, "Hmm. It makes sense. I just want some pizza." You know what I'm saying? So you don't really understand it. But what I saw that--as I became a younger man, as I grew into a younger man, a lot of things that my father would talk about, you began to see it differently. It's like a farmer planting a seed. Not planting a seed so he can eat tomorrow, but planting a seed so that somewhere down the line, experience is going to water it, and you're going to begin to really see life for what it is. And I'm really grateful to my father for that. So he helped to really shape the foundation. He was a phenomenal poet, and I really wish I would've got a chance or the world would've got a chance to at least hear some of his poetry or read some of his poetry. And before he passed--he passed in 2012, but before he passed, I was able to get a story from him. And I released it in my latest book, was it "Hidden Ripples, Life's Unspoken Language." And I was able to get a story from my father where he was big on--just imagery. He was big on--writing from the perspective of a leaf, writing from the perspective of a tree, writing from the perspective of an anthill. Like the things you don't think about. My father was really big on that. And my mom is more the comical. Just that dry humor, very funny, like--funny jokes and everything. And that's from my mom's side of the family. It's a very comical, loving, open, real. But my father was always that deep inflection, that deep thinker, that philosopher, that was my father. So I always like to say--I tell people, as a man and a woman come together and conceive a child, you can have one writing style and another writing style that can merge and conceive a different writing style. There's so many words. So yeah--I could go on, but you know.

00:07:44Stephens: Yeah. It sounds like even though you say that the points your dad was trying to make didn't necessarily stick right then, they were sort of seeds that were planted, but you started writing pretty young, right?

00:08:01LaRoche: Yes. I started writing--and of course, I would say when you write, especially growing up in New York in the 80s, in the early 90s--I mean, I'm in a 70s--I was born in the 70s, but we grew up in the 80s in New York, and it was a different world where you would step outside and it was like--it was a commercial. "Do you know where your children are?" So New York was a different world. Excuse me (clears throat), than what it is now. So when I wrote, I would always write based on you know, just what the common influences--through the hip-hop. And you would see the style, and the format, and rhythm, and the swag, and you were just trying to write--like, "Hey man, I, you know, I grew up with a--" You know, you just come up with--and what it would be for fun. So, when I really began to--be serious about my writing, and I think the first piece I wrote was a piece called "Warriors Without a War." And it was kind of a reflection of what you really see in the neighborhoods. How so many young kids were programmed--even though we all look the same. It's like we were programmed to attack each other, to hurt each other, and it's like trying to get an idea of what is this program? What is this program that got me looking at the guy that looked like me and want to attack him? You know what I mean? And when I began to share, like that was probably my first real poem that I wrote, and you know I read it now, I'd be like, "Oh man, it's elementary." But back then it was just like, wow, like--you know I was able to see that at 13 or 14, and sharing it with my brother, at the time he was incarcerated--and he was just like you need to get your word out. You need to let other people--I'm letting people inside read your work and they're inspired. So he's like you need to get--you need to let other people read what you got to say man, like so I would say my brother kind of helped to give me that voice because he in his own right he was a--he was a writer and all my brothers, you know, in their own right they were writers and they can be rappers and poets because the apple don't fall far from the tree, with my father. So I started writing early but--like anything, you know you write--it's like, Oh man the world, you know nobody gonna--it's corny, ain't nobody gonna feel it, ain't nobody gonna understand it--nobody's, it's--a moot point until you share it, and then you see that it inspires people and it's like, wow. And that's what got me into it just writing a lot more. And, you know, just began to write and it was--poets used to always tell me if you want to become a better poet, read other poets, read other work. And as I began to read--my father was big on Khalil Gibran. Khalil Gibran was a poet. He, man--I would say he helped to shape my ideas for how I understand poetry. Growing up, you know, you learn about Shakespeare and, you know, Othello and--you know what I mean? And a lot of the books that they put before you in middle schools and high schools or junior high schools and high schools growing up in New York. But, um--my father was big on introducing me to the work of Khalil Gibran. And his work was always about seeing life from a different perspective, or understanding--like our children are not our children, they're the sons and daughters of life longing for itself that come through you, but not from you. So my father used to always quote this stuff, like man--and I used to be like, Pops it deep! And then he used to--he introduced me and my sisters and my brothers to Khalil Gibran and other writers and that's when I began to say--okay let me get a little more focused with this writing, you know.

00:11:56Stephens: So you were you were reading and hearing Gibran from your father.

00:11:59LaRoche: Yes.

00:12:00Stephens: What about what about other poets or hip-hop that you were listening to in the 80s?

00:12:03LaRoche: Man, where do you begin? Another poet that I would say really had a great influence on me was a poet by the name of Saul Williams. And I remember watching the movie Slam. He made a movie called Slam and I remember watching it and I was like, wow. Because you know a lot of times I was writing and I was writing just kind of on the surface. But Saul Williams had the ability to just go in. Then you know, then you got Nicky Giovanni, The Last Poets--you know Langston Hughes. You know, just the regular poets that you learn about in growing up. You know, you learn a lot during African--you know, in New York, you can learn--it's a lot more African, you know, than Black History Month. You learn a lot more than just, you know, the basic like the same ten people that they always tell you about, you know. But we would learn, we would really get into--just different poets and different unsung heroes and different people. And that gave me an opportunity to just kind of read and just say--wow, let me, you know--I like the way this poet project this image. I like the way--and I just began to just try to just begin to blend with style, but still having my own--with my father being my foundation, my spirit being my foundation, you know, and writing from within. Because I can start writing--like now I probably got about twenty poems going on in my head where life writes. I'm just--you know what I'm saying--like it comes through you, not from you, as Khalil Gibran would say. And I try to tell a lot of poets, it comes through us, not from us. So as I drive daily, as I see the news and some of the injustice and a lot of things that you see going on in the world, you write. And I constantly write in my head, and I'm constantly writing. And then a piece--I read a piece the other day, I forget the poet that quoted. He says, Sometimes the poet don't know what the poem is about. (laughs) You know what I mean--where the poem writes itself in so many ways. And that's what happens--I write in my head, I write, and then the poem kind of says, Okay, if I don't stop this, then this thing can end up being a half an hour long. So let me just stop it, because--the attention span of people are kind of short. So try to just--impact it with a little bit at a time, as much as I can, and then just release it. So hip-hop--hip-hop played a big role in shaping my ideas of the world as well. You know I mean? And I'm not talking about a lot of stuff that you see now because the stuff we see now is now controlled it's--controlled by a different entity. It's--put out there to shape and program the world, of what the African American community is, and looks like. And that's not always true, that's not--as in, it's far from it! But when the world is programmed to see us as violence, as criminals, because of--okay, look at this video, look at this hip-hop video. And I saw that a lot when I got a chance to travel and go to South Africa and go to Israel and go to different places and people would be like, "Hey man, hey, you got 40, you got blunts" and it's like, come on man, like, you serious? But that's the power of the media and it has the ability to influence and shape and before you even get a chance to meet a person, you've already come up, you've already formed a--pre-mature conclusion of who this person is, without even communicating, without even making eye contact, without even shaking a person's hand, without even understanding a person's point of view--you come to a pre-mature conclusion. And so the hip-hop that I was raised on was not the hip-hop that we see now. There were a lot of KRS-One, a lot of Brand Nubians, a lot of--you know, Poor Righteous Teachers, Jehru the Damaja, these were--these were poets. Public Enemy--these were poets that--not poets, but hip-hop artists that used the music to put forth a message of, yo--we headed for self-destruction, uplift, work together, community! And it's like, how could the mass not embrace that message in hip-hop? Why is the corporate, the corporations behind, you know, who give--the labels behind it, why do they continue to spew out the same violence, degrading, the same energy? And at some point you have to realize that it's deliberately done, you know, and you try to share that in your poems and you try to share that in your action and, you know--and try to do your best to just kind of fight against this Goliath. Because there's billions of dollars that is being put into shaping and constructing, and programming, and conditioning the minds of these kids, you know! And then you have systems that catch, once the kids act out that behavior that is being programmed inside of them, then you have systems that catch them, and the cycle just keeps going. And at some point we're like--as poets--as men, and especially as African American, as Black men in this country at this time, in this moment where it becomes our duty to not just sit down and watch generations and generations just being filtered or being cycled into the prison complex. And it's like at some point, where's the morality? Where's the humanity behind that? You know, and yeah--so my upbringing was the rappers that shaped my ideas of the world. It was always, "We gotta fight the power." And, you know, We headed for self-destruction and One Love. And Bob Marley, you know, he's not hip-hop, he's reggae. But, you know, that was my upbringing. My father used to own a lot of Stevie Wonder, a lot of Marvin Gaye, "What's going on?" You know, and that is what I believe shaped my ideas and ideals of the world as a young man, and what thrust me into activism; what thrust me into the role of not being part of the problem, but being part of the solution in society.

00:18:45Stephens: I want to talk more about structures at some point in our conversation, but for now--as we talk about your early life, in addition to poetry, your father, and I think some of the other elders in your community, mentored you in chess.

00:19:03LaRoche: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Chess! There were always--there was a brother named--and me and some of my friends that we grew up--our childhood mates that we grew up with, we'd talk about this gentleman. His name was--we'd just call him Abraham, Mr. Abraham. And he was a--he was a--he was a--I believe he was in the Air Force. Yes. He was probably retired from the Air Force. And he would just plant a lot of good seeds inside of us. And I think what--what immediately-, because a lot of times when you kids, it's like--you don't just take what people say offhand. Like, you know, somebody has to do something that say, "Wow!" Like, "I want to know more. I want to learn more." And I think he stood across the room one day with a rubber band. And he just like plucked a fly off the wall, like--look, look, from across the room--whoopsh (mimics rubber band)! And he hit the fly! We was like, "Whoa!" And just, it was something small, but something that small is what made us say, "Wow!" Like, and he would just talk to us like, "Every day you learn something. Learn something every day." So he would, when we was young, he used to always just have us learn chess. And when I got--when I learned chess, I always learned chess from--not the ego. Because a lot of times when we're grandmasters and we can think 20, 50 moves ahead, I can't do that. You know what I'm saying? I can't do all that. But when I learned chess, I've always learned chess from the point of, this is chess. This is life. This is the mirror. Chess and life. Think before you do things. You know what I mean? Focus. And so I always, always learned chess from that aspect--where we would play and we would learn strategies and things. But it was more of how are you applying this in real life. And I think that's what shapes my idea for developing a non-profit, you know, I mean Chess and Community. But growing up, there were those elders that would always teach us chess. You know, and I began to incorporate that into when I began working with youth. And I said, "Let me include chess." Because regardless of where you're at, chess was always a way of--you have to sit back and you have to think through a situation. And if we can get, if we can get you to continue just thinking through scenarios and situations and different points then you can begin to--it's easier when you are confronted with real issues that you can kind of think your way through the situation. So those elders back in the days that would, there was those brothers they would just say look, let me teach you chess, let me. And then you know New York, you go through parks, they all play chess and you just sit there and watch. But you want to play? Here's a dollar. I ain't got a dollar to throw away but I'll watch the game all day and then, just go on your way. But it was, again, it was those elders who understood that we have to develop the next generation of kids to think critically, to think through scenarios and think through circumstances that they will face in life. Not they might, that they will face in life. Because it's a real world and hate is real and racism is real and you know, these things are real. So you can either feed into that or you can think your way, you know--you can feed into it with your emotions or you can just kind of think your way through the situation and find a common ground. So I always try to find--use my poetry, you know, that altruist, that social worker in me that--and merge it with the strategist, with the chess player and just kind of form some type of, you know--structure, you know, if I may say. Yeah.

00:23:00Stephens: I want to talk about that as well in a little bit. You came down South though, right?

00:23:07LaRoche: Yes.

00:23:08Stephens: After living in Brooklyn for your whole life--

00:23:11LaRoche: Yes. Yes.

00:23:12Stephens: --You came South.

00:23:12LaRoche: Yes.

00:23:13Stephens: How'd you end up in Georgia?

00:23:15LaRoche: In Georgia, man. Let me see. When I came South, it was a way of, you know--just, you know, it's crazy. It's almost as if, you know--a lot of people are flying to the light. You know, the cities are lights, you know, and like a mosquito and a moth, you fly towards the light, you know. And when the light captures you, it could blind you, you know, in so many ways. Growing up it was like, you want to get a chance to see something different. I remember we used to go upstate New York. And we'd say like, "Man, look at the deers!" Like, "Wow, did you see that there?" And it would be, "Look at the cows, look at the cows!" Because you see that on TV. And here you are growing up in a city where it's a concrete jungle, you know? They're stacked on top of each other, you know? And it--shapes your ideas of what the world is, you know? And you even begin to think within a box or within a grid, you know what I mean? Within a certain mindset and coming South was a way to say, Okay, like, you know, you're gonna see--you're gonna experience something different. You know? And at the time, I know a lot of, like, friends, a lot of people I knew was like, Yo, I'm about to just go South, man. Get out of New York. Because, you know, it's--you hear this story, man, when you see people you went to high school with and people just end up getting incarcerated or get killed, and it's like, you got to go into a new environment, a different environment. So, coming South was that. It was like, Okay, let me see a different environment. Let me see what else it has to give. So, I came down. I started in Atlanta. It was like, Okay--just a little New York, you know? But Atlanta back in the mid to late 90s--it was a different energy there. So it was like--I was in Atlanta and I got a chance, and I just remember it coming South, and it was just like, I remember driving, it felt like you was driving--for days, you know? You would sleep, wake back up, sleep, and like, "Man, when are we getting there?" Because it was the first trip out of New York where you have to drive 13, 14, 15 hours. Seeing, like, animals on the road and seeing deers, dead deers, and looking like, "What is that? Like, look at that big rat!" And somebody said, "That's a possum." I was like, "A possum? Like, they look like New York City rats!" You know--but it was like, "That thing is big!" I was like, "It's a possum," you know? So, you would see TV and you would see, like, tree houses and you would see kids building tree houses. Like, "Man, I want to do that, but ain't no trees out here." So, it was kind of like becoming a kid again. But, at the same time, it was also about shaping your identity. Because growing up, we used to see Dukes of Hazzard, you know, so we used to have the confederate flag on top of the cars. But, we didn't really understand that growing up. It was kind of like, man, I want that car, I want to draw that flag on it, because it was cool. You know what I mean? But, when you come down the South, then you begin to--you know, you stop for a bathroom break and you go in the bathroom and you read some of the stuff on the walls, you're like, good lord, like. where am I walking into? What am I walking into? Like, die--you know, I hate--blah, blah, blah. It's like, wow. So it was kind of like, okay, let me begin to be a little more conscious of--not saying that it's not racism in New York, because trust me, you see what's going on with the police and stuff up there. It definitely exists, but I just think it's hidden better, whereas down South, it's straight up. "Hey, I don't like you." "Hey, I'd rather you tell me you don't like me. And I walk this way, you walk this way, we leave each other alone." Versus somebody who don't like you, but he or she has access to a policy that can control your life. So, coming down South, it was like--it was, to me, it was a new world. Like, you know--I loved it. And I--Atlanta, then from Atlanta, I went to Macon, Georgia, and that was like stepping--like way back. Like not gonna say way back, because I learned a lot. I learned so much in the South-so much about who I am and--just different mindsets and different mentalities. And I think that allowed me to begin to--I can see what my father saw in the sense of--sometimes you have to look at the world through somebody else's lens, through somebody else's perspective. Or you don't just see things through your perspective all the time, because there are various different perspectives on how the world work, and coming South I learned a lot--I made a lot of mistakes, and I learned a lot. And from there, from Macon, Georgia I graduated from Southwest High School but I would leave and go back to New York and came back. And so I didn't--my education was kind of like everywhere. That wasn't really where my focus was. But when I eventually did graduate from Southwest High School in Macon, I--you know, I took a route because my GPA was shot--so I took a route going towards Gordon College in Barnesville, Georgia. And it was with--I would say my--other brothers like these not my biological brothers, but they were brothers--that was like man, We going to go to college you want to come with us? And their fathers would say, Yo--would encourage us, like come on. I'm taking my sons to school, you come with us. And again it was--takes that village to raise a child that--that shaped me, that brought me into--that shaped me into the person that I am today. And I started--went to Gordon College and then from there I transferred to UGA and here I am.

00:29:18Stephens: So you had--you had family friends in Macon?

00:29:21LaRoche: Yeah it was like people you knew and I would just go and stay with this guy and--you know, he enrolled me in school. And so it was--it was different elders and different people that knew my father, you know that say, Look I got you. I mean, Look let me make sure you go to school you--you know? You go do this, and you go do that, you know. And so I had that.

00:29:43Stephens: And did your father have roots in the South?

00:29:45LaRoche: Um, I would say yes and no. I'm not going to say he had roots in the South, because my grandparents--my grandmother, okay, let me take that back. From my mother's side, yes, there's roots down in--you know, the Geechees down in Charleston, you know, because that's the Geechee, I'm a Geechee boy. They say, "Oh, I'll go visit the Geechees." That's from the John Island, James Island, the Lowcountry, as they call it. So, that's my mom. My mom had roots, but my father, he's pretty much more of the islands, Dominica. Not Dominican Republic, but Dominica. My grandmother's from Dominica. So, my grandmother on my mother's side was more Native. She was, you know, a Native American. So, it was like just kind of--some of everything, you know. So, I can grab, you know, all aspects. But I don't think my father had roots. But, there were people that my father knew who were down South that was like, "Okay, you can stay with this family," and things like that.

00:30:53Stephens: So after a time at Gordon College, you ended up at UGA.

00:30:57LaRoche: UGA, University of Georgia.

00:31:00Stephens: What was your first impression of the university?

00:31:03LaRoche: To be honest, it's--does the South an injustice when--people only perceives that, okay--you're going South, that means there's nothing but racism down there. Because that's the mindset. South, history, racism, you know. But, so, in coming it was like, okay, I know I'm going to probably encounter some of the deepest minds, you know what I mean, just in the sense of racism. But at the same time, I can get a chance to really get to know that real Southern peach, you know what I mean, sort of. Because Gordon College was his own little world, you know what I mean. In the sense of the police, like, I've never had so many encounters with police officers that were just blatantly, like, racist. You know what I'm saying? Like, blatant racist. And it's like, Whoa, like, You're a police officer, like--if you hate, why are you in that position? Like, period. Like, so--

00:32:05Stephens: Can you think of a specific time?

00:32:06LaRoche: Oh, man, plenty of scenarios. Think of one? Oh, man, do we have enough time to, you know, just keep going? But I can think of--scenarios where I'm driving and a police officer is driving adjacent to me and we just lock eye contact as we're going over the railroad track and before you know it, he turns around and it's like, "Serious? You pulled me over?" And he was like, "Is there any reason why somebody would call your car--having drugs in it?" And I'm like--"Well, that wasn't the only car I made that year, so of course not." So, you know, you got to get sarcastic even though it's not the right way to go--but it's like, it's blatantly why you pulled me over. I've got pulled over in the sense where--I mean, where the police officer was literally trying to trigger something in you. And that's what people don't understand. It's like--when a police officer says, you know, "Look down!" Like, "What are you looking at?" Like--it's like, You're a police officer! "I'm not telling you to speak. Get your hands out your pocket." Like, to purposely--it's like, "You're here to protect and serve, sir." But a lot of times, it's like, "Okay, let me be careful. I still want to get home. I'm not afraid of you at all." But it's not worth it. I don't have bail money (chuckles). So, let me comply. But it's a lot of those type of scenarios where--when you can see--like, the outlash, the outcry that you've seen is going on in this country today. It's not just fabricated. It's not because we have nothing to do. It's because there's some blatant--there's some blatant officers that are out of control. And I don't speak for the entire--there are some officers that are way out of control. And God forbid, one is having a bad day and you cross that person. And that's not just a Black issue. I've ran into a lot of my white friends, a lot of--Hispanic friends who deals with a lot of the same issues. But in a lot of--in Gordon College, I mean, it was just one particular officer who was always just--anything I'd do, he was just--every time he'd see me, he'd just pull me over. "Where you going?" Like, "Sir, I'm going to class." You know? You know, like, "What are you doing here?" Like, "Well, there's a school here. There's stores here I can eat at." You know what I mean? Like, "Can you reframe your question, sir?" You know? So it was a lot of that, but God forbid I never got killed or thrown in jail for something that I didn't do. And I did experience, like, racism on a lot of different levels, you know? Where I walked into a store and a lady, you know--I'm giving a lady money, and I know what I gave her, because I was contemplating, "Should I break this 20?" And I gave her some money, and instead of, you know, giving her some change, she's like, "No, you only gave me a dollar." It's like, "Ma'am, I gave you—-" "--You people always do this!" It's like, "See? No. So let me just get $20 worth of stuff, and--the camera work? Let's bring the camera out. I'm not going to argue with you." So a lot of stuff like that where it's like people automatically assume, and walking into the store in Macon, Georgia, walking to a store with a couple of friends during lunch, and the clerk just locks the door, and, you know, they all were stealing, you know? It's like— "You saw all of us steal? Look at all this money I got in my pocket. How do you see all of us steal? Where's the camera to prove?" You know? But the cop has to listen, and you get locked up with everybody, and it's like—so she can just say anything, and I'm incarcerated, but it's your word against mine, you know? So I've had a lot of really, you know, just—I mean, not—no experience that they have had back in the '60s and the '70s, but just different experience in the way you say, Man, you recognize that, okay, this is real. Racism is real. I need to really learn how to carry myself. I don't need to change who I am to make you feel good. Let me be who I am, and let me respect you in the same way you should respect me. And that's why I think the moment that people--I have to cut my hair. I have to cut my--I have to totally conform, so that you can feel comfortable. And that's the part where it's like, "You're not willing to do that for me." Okay, you have access to the jobs, you can give me a job, I get it. And you don't want me to make nobody afraid, I get it. But I'm going to respect you, and please respect me in the same manner. And that's what I think a part of humanity--where we somehow missed out, where we don't respect each other. There is no respect, you know. There's no, I see you already come to a premature conclusion of who you are, be it you're a Black person or a white person. You know what I mean? And that's what just keeps--you know, a gentleman said this to me yesterday--Whether it's Black supremacy or white supremacy or you know, it's all the same issue that's going to continue to just pull the country into the direction it's being pulled into. But I don't know how I swayed way off subject, but hey, got a lot to say, bro.

00:37:14Stephens: No, no, don't worry about that. That's totally fine. And given all those experiences, when you came to UGA and Athens, how was what you saw or experienced the same or different or both?

00:37:32LaRoche: You know, it's--how can you say it? It's--how can I say it? You know, I'll say it like this. When you get a chance to meet a white person who shares the same spirit, you know what I'm saying? A lot of times you hear about it, you know what I mean? Like, "Oh, okay, they're all evil, all Black people are this, all white people are this." But when you get to meet somebody who shares the same, your spirit. And it was like, "Yo, he gets me. I get you." You know what I mean? And you would run into different issues, I would run into different issues, and you know--I lived on campus. And you know, you go into a room and there's a confederate flag, you're like, "Oh boy, how we gonna do this?" But I was always like, "Hey, man. Let me--I want to enjoy, I want to get to know the mindset." Because my thing is, if you dislike me, not saying the confederate flag is a symbol of hating Black people, because it's culture for a lot of people, and I had to learn that, you know. But it was like, Let me understand your mindset. Let me understand this mindset that, you know, that I'm going to be, I'm going to be friend. You know, we're going to be doing business together in the future. We're going to be pushing policies together maybe. You're going to be the future--senator, you're going to be a policymaker at some point, so let me get an idea to understand your mindset, and let me get an opportunity to influence you in a way to show you that no, everybody—because a lot of—and you learn that—kids will tell me like, Man, I grew up in a town where--we've never had a Black person in our town. I would see Black people, like there was no Black people in our schools. So it was like—my only perspective of a Black person is what I see on TV, and they're not doing a good job of, you know, spraying our image, you know? So it was an opportunity to really learn. So I would run into kids, they'd be like, "Hey, man, how you doing, man? You like Nelly?" And I'd be like, "Hey, you like Garth Brooks?" And they'd be like, "I didn't mean it like that. I didn't mean it like that." So it was like, when you meet me, what's your name? Where you from? You know what I mean? (laughs) Let's engage in a regular dialogue. Like, I'm a person. Don't immediately associate me with a music preference. I'm not going to ask you, "What's your music preference?" before I ask you your name. So what's your name? You know what I mean? And I would have kids be like, "Man, yo, I'm going to be honest with you--my mom's, like, my family, like, they racist, you know? But, like, I never got a chance to really meet and engage with a person--like a Black person. And, like, you're totally different from how I thought Black people were." So, it was like, "Wow, so how do you think Black people were?" You know, but it's understood. So, you can't, I can't forgive you--like, I can't blame you for your ignorance. You know what I'm saying? In the same way, you don't blame me for my ignorance because my ideas of white people was from what history showed me. You know what I mean? You get the chance to meet and engage. And I met some really good spirits, like I would call them my brothers, like to this day, that's my brother. And they understand, and I understand--and the kid was telling me, "Yeah, my mom don't really like--" And then you see the mom that weekend, and the mom is smiling in your face like, "Hey, how you doing?" And you're like, "How you doing, ma'am?" But it's like, and the kids behind you are like, "Don't say nothing, don't say nothing." So--you know, it got a chance to help me understand that, like, people are people, on all levels, on all layers. And you're gonna run into those who care, who are open in spirit, who are really good people, and you're gonna run into those who have their own issues, so they project that outward, because they're dealing with their own issues. So, I had to learn to step back and really--kind of understand policies. And then sitting in classrooms and sitting in multicultural classes and hearing different perspectives. And now there's a platform for me to share. The same way I can understand--I understand your mind, I understand why you think the way you think. You know what I'm saying? I understand that. That don't make it right, but I understand it. And it would be in the classrooms where we can debate different issues and where people say, "Man, well, I don't--I just don't like--" You know, those people. And it's like, well, you know--like, it's understood. You know what I mean? But at least have a reason. You know what I mean? What's the reason? You know? So, being in school, there was an opportunity to really get that chance to understand that mindset and engage it in a way where I can--where--how can I put it? Where you can begin some type of healing. Because at some point, you know, whatever your issues are--at some point, you're going to have to come face-to-face with it. So it was an opportunity. It helped me--being that I do a lot of work with social work and dealing with counseling, working with different families--white, Black--I can understand the mindset. Because I've had, you know--I've had some people say some really ignorant things, but you have to maintain your composure and understand where they're coming from and find a way to engage them in a positive way, if that makes sense.

00:43:12Stephens: Athens and UGA have a reputation in the state for being, perhaps, I don't even know what the best word would be. People sometimes use the word liberal or progressive compared to the rest of the state. You've talked a little bit about your experience on campus. What about UGA and Athens specifically, the communities here? What was your impression of how diversity was talked about? Or how race, really--the role that race played and sort of what's going on in people's everyday lives in this space?

00:43:48LaRoche: Okay, well, I remember when I understand Athens, I try to put myself in a mind frame of how I got to understand Athens as a community. I came here as a student. So as a student, like every other student, your mind was on--okay, the girls, the school work and, you know, just--like UGA was your community. But when being in the social work, you get a chance to go out into the community and learn about the real issues that were going on in the community. And I remember one of my teachers, Dr. McNair, he's no longer with us. He was, you know--he's one of my professors, man. He was a really, he was a really, he was a really good guy, you know. And he would give us different projects where we would go into the community and we would have to address the gentrification and we would, you know--because this is part of--now you're going to practice what it's like to be on the ground. And when I got a chance to go into the Athens community, I saw that there were like two totally different worlds. You have the UGA world where, you know, you drink, you do your work, you surround yourself with all the students, you hit Ramsey's, you go to the gym, you have a good time, you party, and then you go to--but then there was an entire community outside. And my thing was--okay, let me get a chance to really begin to understand this community more. At the time, I didn't know Athens was one of the poorest counties. I didn't know all that, but I began to learn as we go out there and say, "Man, you know, like, you mean to tell me, like, you've never been on campus? You've never been on UGA? It's right down the street." Like, "Man, I don't want to go down there." "Why? You got an opportunity to--?" "Man, them folks don't want us down there." And it's like, let me really assess what that mean, you know what I mean? And the more I got into the community, the more I learned that there was in Athens, UGA, and then there was the Athens community that dealt with its own issues and I've always been the person that if I come in I want to come not taking, but come in and give. So my thing was--I developed I began to intern and do different work at Whit Davis Elementary--at the schools, where I developed programs and I was trying to find ways to get the student more engaged with the community. And the community more engaged with the students and we formed Dreaded Mindz which was an organization that was to tie the community with the school to bring those people--the community and the school youth together so we can learn from each other, so we can embrace each other--so we can, you know what I mean, engage each other in a positive way. So it was a student and a community organization that was formed. We would do programs at Whit Davis where I would take the students from the elementary--we were doing a bunch of different poetry on campus, so we would get the students to come on campus and--they would bus the students on campus and the students would engage in the poetry. Like poetry in motion where the kids would get a chance to act out some of the poetry and it was a way of engaging the community with the school. So when I saw that, okay--we can do things. We can do things to really better this relationship between the school and the community, and I try to do whatever I can to do it, but, yeah--you learn quickly, like, why, and you can understand why. You know, you can understand--the community's like, look, like, you can see--like, UGA is just getting bigger and bigger, and we're being pushed further and further out. You know what I mean--no jobs, all the jobs the students get, they're not trying to pay us nothing. Low wages, I'm working at UGA, but I'm also working this job and that job--working three jobs so that I can pay rent. And when you begin to hear and see some of that stuff, then it's like it does something to you. It's like, whoa. And the altruist in you, the activists in you, the person inside of you want to say, "Okay, what can be done? Okay, problem--solution. How can we find a way to resolve it?" And then you learn that sometimes the issue is bigger than you. It's so much bigger, and it's generational. It's cycles, you know what I mean? And how can you break--someone, the mistrust, you know? We saw what happened on campus when they tried to integrate UGA, and so a lot of the communities remember that. Like, nobody forget that. They know what happened. So where it's like now, it's a makeover, everybody's smiling. It's like, Okay, what's really—what's rooted behind that smile? And so there are issues that the community, there's a mistrust and there's a reason. It's not like they're making stuff up, there's a reason for that mistrust. So it was about how do we break that--how do we form that. And a lot of things that I do is about how can I, you know, how can I get a person to not focus on another person but to focus on--try to rebuild from within, if that makes sense.

00:49:10Stephens: Just to clarify, what community or communities are you talking about as being separate or isolated from the campus?

00:49:19LaRoche: When I began on campus, it was more like going up North Avenue, because a lot of work we was doing, and we got an idea, like, well, okay, a lot of changes are going to be made at the University of Georgia. So, a lot of, like, the Martin Luther King, that Ruth, all the areas around campus, you know. Those were the areas that we were going door to door and trying to petition and get the community together to say, "Okay, what are some of the issues? What are some of the needs? Let's identify what are some of the things." And you realize that simple stuff, like, "Man, we don't got sidewalks. We don't have--" So, you couldn't just address one problem because there were plenty of problems. So, and it was warning--like, we was telling the community, like, "Yo, there's a lot of things." We were connecting with the different churches. And these were, like, the Fourth-- Fourth Street, the whole North Avenue area, around the campus.

00:50:11Stephens: Primarily Black communities?

00:50:13LaRoche: Of course, African American communities, of course. And it was--and back then it was more. Because, as--and sadly, one thing that don't lie is time. And a lot of those houses that we knocked on are now student houses. A lot of those areas have been broken down and rebuilt and homes are--gentrification.

00:50:36Stephens: And this was in the early 2000s?

00:50:38LaRoche: Yeah, I came here in '99. I got in UGA in '99. And we began doing a lot of the social work stuff within 2000. And there was some merit to it because a lot of those homes and a lot of those African American families--older, they were saying, "Man, look, they trying to take my house! And they trying to--this and this." And sometimes you're like, "Okay, come on. Look, let's focus on this and this and this." Right. Time don't lie. You know, 10 years later, it's like, "Whoa, 15 years later, well, you was on to something," because that whole area is gentrified. There's nothing but students there now. And we wer--back then, trying to warn the community, "Let's work together to figure out how we can address and, you know, work together with UGA." And that's what the community is saying--UGA is not about working with us, it's about taking what we have. And, and--it's about how do we repair that? How do we repair that relationship, you know? Because, because people would say, well, you know, them areas were nothing but crime--a lot of crime there, anyway. So we just came there and broke down and got rid of all the people and built new houses. And now, you know, we got students living there. And, and when the students come, that's when money all of a sudden is found. And money is now invested in the community. So--that's the issue that the town has with UGA and it's a real issue and it's not--it's not--you can't just say it's happening in Athens, it's happening in New York, it's happening in Chicago, it's happening in D.C. It's happening in every place I go and do shows, you see it happening. And--that's the sad reality but the sad truth. So--that mistrust--you know what I mean? That trust and mistrust--and this is why when students come out it causes that like--"No, you're a UGA--I don't want to have anything to do with UGA." But yet you have the other aspect of saying, "Hey, I want to just get a job at UGA. Because UGA at least pay." But then, do they really pay? You know, so, yeah.

00:52:47Stephens: Could you talk a little more about Dreaded Mindz and what that was about--what your goals were? It sounds like it was related to that, it was very much related to that divide. It was also about hip-hop in Athens, right? Could you talk a little bit about--

00:53:01LaRoche: Now, the founder of Dreaded Mindz was a brother by the name of Montu, Montu Miller. And it's crazy, when I was at Gordon College, I had a girlfriend who went to Georgia State. So I would come to Atlanta and see--I was going to say I had a friend who was at Georgia State, and I would come to Atlanta and see her. And one day I came to Atlanta and she was--roommates or best friend with another lady and Montu was dating her. So we met each other in Atlanta. This was probably in '97. Before I even came to UGA, I didn't even know if I was coming to UGA. And he was just talking about all the things that he's doing. He was like, "Man, Dreaded Mindz." He was like, "Man, I got an idea for an organization called Dreaded Mindz. We're going to put together this and this." And I was telling him some of the things that we were doing down in Gordon. Like, man, we getting in communities, we trying to do this and this and this. So it was kind of like brothers just kind of passing and saying, "Yo, this is what I'm doing. This is what I'm doing. Yo, good luck. Have a good one. You know, I'll see you when I see you." And when I got to UGA--because I didn't think he went to UGA, and it happens--I don't know. We ended up at UGA, and I'm walking, and he called my name. I'm like, "Oh!" And we embraced each other, and he was like--we're on campus--remember Dreaded Mindz, like, "Let's make it happen!" He already had the bylaws, and I was like, "Let's do it!" And the concept was to create a home outside of home, within UGA. Because a lot of times, you're at the University of Georgia, and as a lot of African American students, we didn't really feel included in a lot of, you know--it would say, "Oh, come on. Come to UGA." But--we didn't really feel included in a lot of the programs, you know. We didn't really feel a connection. So we would form what was called, uh--man, what we called it? Ah--it's on the tip of my tongue. Um--it was like a, uh--like an open mic. But it was at his home. So it started off maybe twelve, fifteen students. And we would just kind of--we would just have an incense and we would just kind of talk. And the idea was The Lounge. That's what it is, The Lounge. And we would just walk through these beeds, and the idea was--whatever issues you got, leave it outside of the beeds. When you come here, let's just talk, let's share, let's open, let's engage. And we would just pass the incense. And whoever had the incense, it was their time to speak. And we would just kind of talk about life, man--this is what happened this year on campus, man. I ran into this. And we would just kind of share the experience. And it was a way of creating a community within a community. And that lounge became twenty, then thirty. Then sixty, it was like, whoa, whoa, it's too big. So from there, we moved into a location. So what we decided to do was to break Dreaded Mindz into--not break, but to have different committees within Dreaded Mindz. So we started off as a student organization, but we opened it up to the community as well, because it was a way of showing a lot of those young brothers in the community--giving them access, and giving them opportunities to come on campus and learn and see, so that way it can inspire them. And at the same time, those brothers in the communities, or those people in the communities, will allow us the opportunity to come out and embrace us. Like, we're coming into your town. Like, you know, let me learn about it. Let me understand where I'm walking. Let me understand what areas I should (clears throat), excuse me, or should not go to. So, we began that. And one of the focus of Dreaded Mindz was the hip-hop element because Athens was always known for its rock town. Athens is a rock town. Anybody say Athens, you know, R.E.M., it's a rock town. So, hip-hop was not really embraced in Athens--like no one, people shunned hip-hop, like uh, nobody want to play that music. So, not a lot of clubs, not a lot of people would entertain hip-hop in a lot of ways. So, Dreaded Mindz--there was already hip-hop in Athens, so we're not going to say, "We brought hip-hop into Athens," because there was already hip-hop in Athens, a lot more underground. So, I think it was like, "Let's figure out a way to utilize our student--you know what I'm saying, identities to get, or at least open up." So, we started with open mics, we started with poetry nights where we do different poetry, and we would do different hip-hop, and that was a way of really--bringing, and bringing more of the community, as well as the town inside. And Dreaded Mindz wasn't only Black--it was like we had white kids, we had women, it was open to everyone. And the concept was just like, let your mind dread. Like, one strand of hair can easily be pulled apart, where when it's a loc, when it's a dread, it gets hard to pull. So it was about, let's form that loc, let's form that unity, and not allow anything to pull us apart. And we would do different things, like we would go have cyphers on campus, like big cyphers. At that point, hip-hop and cyphers were really big globally, like everybody was into cyphers and we put like hip-hop battles on campus and we really brought a lot of attention. I mean, we would bring in hundreds and hundreds of people, we were like, "Wow!" So we had the--we would also take kids to other--we would go to, like, we went to Clemson and we would meet with--over there, with hip-hop artists there and we would have battles on Clemson. And guys would come with UGA flags and, you know what I mean? It was a really--but it was all fun. It was an--embrace, fun. And the people would probably not even know, never know that that kind of stuff was happening in Athens, in UGA. You know what I mean? Because it was like, even within campus--many worlds within the worlds on campus, you know what I mean? So what we did was we had the Dreaded Mindz, where we focused on hip-hop. And then I was solely in charge of the community aspect. You know what I mean? We developed an organization called BEARS, Bringing Education Above Regular Standards. And it was called Dreaded Mindz Seeds, where we would go into the high schools, and the concept was to use the--our expression as a way to get kids to open up, to bring out, to pull out the anger and to talk about different things. So I was involved with the community aspect. And it fit, because I, you know--social work, I was always in the community, so I was in part--I was in charge of there. Then we had a finance committee, then--I mean, we had a nice little organization. And we kind of had to--you know, one thing about Athens is it's a transient town, so people come and go. So a lot of people came, a lot of people enjoyed it, and then a lot of people left, but they took with them that idea--so we're all still in touch now. We got some people up in Africa, we got people all over, but they're always like, "Hey, what's going on with Dreaded Mindz? Where's the Dreaded Mindz family?" And so it was always a positive thing, and we did a lot of different things to really bring the community on campus and find a way to get the campus out to the community and really begin that dialogue, you know.

01:00:38Stephens: In addition to people moving, you know, coming for school and then moving on, there was also some misunderstanding in the in the larger UGA-Athens community about what y'all were doing.

01:00:47LaRoche: Yeah, you know, like anything, like anything--whenever people come together, you know, especially when, you know, the program is--when you see a bunch of Black kids together, oh, they must be up to something no good. But whenever people come together, it, you know--people begin to label it as a gang. It's a gang, or it's a criminal organization. So you began to see a lot of that, you know, in the sense where, you know, somebody would get arrested and he would have a Dreaded Mindz shirt on and it's like, oh boy, that don't help. Sowe felt that it was important to--rather than allowing something that you build to change, people would start thinking it was a gang--like, yo man, I want to be part of Dreaded Mindz, the gang, you know, and it's like, no, it's not a--it's an organization that's about bringing--and we will make sure that you come, you need to come, every person, member need to engage with community service and we go talk to churches, to schools, but, you know, some people just understood the hip-hop element of it. Other people were just so, you know, so at that point, you know--because even at some points I had to leave Athens and go and do my travels, so I would always come back and check in, but the call was let's just kind of, you know, bring this thing down. Let's just kind of, you know, squash it or bring the Dreaded Mindz fam--bring it to,--I'm not going to say bring it to a closure, but let's just kind of deactivate whatever it is that we're doing because you don't want it to--take on the wrong name. Because it would just take one ignorant, one ignorance and one person to fight somebody and he got this t-shirt on and before we know it another gang say, Oh man, us versus y'all! And we don't have time for that type of ignorance so it was about--let's just kind of deactivate it for now but we just continue to do what we do. Because Montu still do a lot of hip-hop in Athens. I still do a lot of community service and the chess things and so we still do what we do. But we just kind of had to--sometimes you have to kill what you create before what you create kills you. If that makes sense. You know, so that was kind of like, I guess the philosophy behind that.

01:03:07Christian Lopez: Let me pause right there.

01:03:15Stephens: What made you decide to study social work?

01:03:20LaRoche: You know--the saying goes, "Did I decide to study it or did it decide to study me?" You know, but it was a part of me. When I first got into school, my thing was, "Okay, I got to prepare for the world. Where is everything? Everything is going to computers." So I think when I initially went to college, I got into it for computer science. And then I got--I was like, you know, programming--I was like, I don't know if I--. But I've always been a peoples' person. You know, people have always expressed that they feel so comfortable talking with me. And so I decided, I said, You know what, let--I got into learning psychology and sociology. And then I'll say, You know what, social work. Let me get into the social work. But social workers tend to have a very negative, you know what I mean, connotation around it. People think a social worker, "You want to take my kids!" And it's like, no, that's not what it's about. It's social work, you know. I'm here to, you know, work with you socially, you know, if that makes sense. But being a social worker was kind of like--I knew it would give me the opportunity to do what I want to do. Because social work is wide open. You can go with the elders, you can go with the youth, you can go with any--you can go with the homeless. You can go into any direction, and you can pretty much create what you want to create. Because it's all about, as my father used to say, providing solutions to a problem. You know what I mean? So--social work, I said, "You know what, this would be that one field that I am not going to be a robot in somebody's cubicle." And, you know, that wasn't me. That's not me. I'm a peoples' person. I like to move. I like to engage. I like to walk. I like to talk. I like to, you know what I mean, shake hands. And, you know, so that's, and I felt social work gave me the platform where I can create what I want to create. And I can incorporate new ideas and new concepts into that practice and inspire, and challenge, and change. So social work kind of was the best avenue to go and do what I need to do.

01:05:40Stephens: And you finished your master's from UGA in what year?

01:05:43LaRoche: I think it was 2003. I got my master's at social work--with social work at University of Georgia. And I had some great professors too, you know, real good professors. Like, they really challenge you, you know. They really--a lot of times, you know, I would--on campus I would go into other classes and it's like, I'm sitting in a room with three, four hundred other students and I'm in the back and, you know, I'm just in my own world. And whereas I would enjoy the social work because it was like--it was like the teachers engage you and challenge you--like, I'm going to bring out your perspective! Like, we're going--let's go there! Let's challenge your perspective! And it's good because a lot of people have never got a chance to really question their own perspective or to really, you know what I mean, get an idea of what--who they really are. And I think that social work program really kind of, whatever was inside of me, it pulled it out to the surface. Like, okay, what--and challenged me in certain areas. And I was like, man, I'm going to try this. I'm going to implement this. I'm going to, and that's how it happened.

01:06:53Stephens: And you started mainly working with kids after that, right?

01:06:58LaRoche: I actually, in the beginning, my intern--I interned at a jail. It was in Jackson County. Was it in Jackson? Yeah, Jackson County. So it was kind of like--I'm out there with, you know, guys who were doing time and around that time--I remember it was 9/11 and--the country was going through, you know, what it was going through--everybody was, the country was in a very hostile and grieving state. And it was an interesting space the country was in and at the time I was interning at--this IW Davis it was this--the jail down in Jackson, and I remember we used to do like art therapy there. Because I was always about trying to encourage--a lot of the guys in there to like, even though you're inside, you still have obligation. You can still have an impact with a lot of the young people out there, because they're being programmed to want to go there. To want to run to jails, you know. So you have an opportunity to still have an impact. And I remember using at that point--I was like I can maybe create--like teach the people about Arabic--somebody want to learn Arabic. I could teach them about Arabic. And, so I remember trying to understand what was going on in the country and try to develop something within that jail. So I started off with the adult, and then I transferred into interning as a probation officer with the Department of Juvenile Justice. And then from there, I just began to do a lot more wraparound services--a lot of work just dealing with families. I felt it was important to try to stop a youth before he reaches that state, rather than run to somebody who's already doing time and say hey, man. And it's what you can do again--this is what you can try to do different next time. Really, you know, the day-to-day--I'm not even thinking about what you're saying, but you know. So working with youth was a way of, like--I can get, I can have a stronger impact. And I can find a way to influence them a lot, before they end up incarcerated.

01:09:15Stephens: What were you noticing about young people who were--who ended up in the juvenile system here? And how did it compare to what you were seeing growing up in Brooklyn?

01:09:26LaRoche: It's--I always tell people that it's the same program. Like I mean, I'm big--everybody's like, man, what you talking about with this program and stuff? It's the same program, like, we all are watching the same television! We all listen to the same music! Now--we all--I mean some of us listen to rock, rap, you know. But the majority of people--we're watching the same tool, and it's same things are programming us. So you would see a kid walk on his pants halfway down in Atlanta or in Athens and you see same thing--you know I mean--in Connecticut. You see the same thing going on in Louisiana. Why? Because we're all affected by the same programming--by the same program, so--. Growing up in New York, it was a little different because I can literally wake up and say, "Today, I want to go to--" I could just throw something--throw a dart on a map and say, "Whatever country that is, I want to see if there's a food like that in New York." And that can become your adventure. And you can just go your day in New York looking for food or taste that food, or you can just get lost in New York. Jump on a train and get lost somewhere in the city--in the Bronx or Manhattan. Whereas down in Georgia, I saw that a lot of the problems that these kids were dealing with was a lack of exposure. You know what I mean? A lot of times--and I can understand the mentality because there were people in Brooklyn that never left Brooklyn. You know what I'm saying? So I can understand the mentality where the same mentality exists here, where there were kids who have never left the town. So all they knew were what they saw. And when a child don't have anything, then you'll be willing to clinch on to anything. "Well, I'm east side. I'm west side." You'd be willing to take ownership of locations that you don't own. You'd be willing to die for something you don't--that don't belong to you. Who's the landlord that owns the property? You're talking about, you--so it was a way of, you saw that--but I understood the mindset. I understood it clearly, so it was like, "Wow." And then mesh that with poverty, the high poverty, and all the other cycles and generation cycles, the cycles of issues that just--. So it was like I understood what I was dealing with. So, when I began to work with the kids, it was kind of easy because I identified. And I remember at one point, I was like, "I'm going to write my autobiography. I'm going to write the story of my story." You know, before somebody else tells you a story, you tell your own story. And I remember opening the book with the kid, one of the first kids. And it's like I remember just breaking the ideas of how I saw myself in this kid. You know what I mean? And, I saw a younger me. And, when I first met him, I read on paper, and it was kind of painting him as--he's a monster, he's this and this. When I met the kid, it was like, "What's up, man?" And it was automatically connection. And the first rule of--you know, you've got to connect with what you're dealing with, with your population. You've got to know a little bit about them. You've got to know a little bit about the background, the history, what's going on, before you can try to save the world. You've got to understand the world. So it was more of an idea where I looked at it from the way of--Let me, every kid I see, I'm just going to try to expand their mindset. To try to expand how they see things, introduce them to a different kind of music, introduce them to a different way of thinking, introduce them to something different. And that way, they can begin to know that, okay, there are other--you know what I mean, get you out your perspective, get you out your box. There are other things. Don't--think outside of the box. There are other things you can do in the world. So I saw that, you know, when I began working with kids, and that's what made it easy for me to really connect with a lot of the kids. A lot of juvenile judges would be like, "Man, what are you doing?" Or, "What are you doing to these kids? Because these kids are really changing." And it's like, I'm just being real. I'm just engaging them. I'm just--not doing nothing special. I'm just really meeting them where they're at, and I'm trying to expand the way they see it.

01:14:07Stephens: Was it at that point that you started using chess?

01:14:09LaRoche: Yes, yes, yes. I would start using chess a little bit, just as a way to say, Okay, let me introduce you to this game. Because it's like, Man, how can I get this kid to love chess? He sees chess as a nerd, like, Man, that's for the nerds. How can I get them to love it? So I began to introduce chess, and I began to show how much--chess mirrors life. The same upbringing, the same programming I grew up in with--the elders would share with me. Look, chess is life. You've got to think before you move. You've got to figure out what you want to do. You've got to figure out how you want to do it, you know? So I began to employ a lot of that same tactic in teaching kids chess. And before I know it, it's like you would teach one kid, and now, every time I tell the kid, after you learn, you've got to teach somebody else. Because it was always like, pass it away, pass it forward. Now you've got to teach somebody else. Now you've got to teach somebody else. So one kid became three, and three became four. And I remember reaching out to--what was it? It was R.E.M.--Burtis, Burtis Downs with R.E.M. I remember reaching out when I first took the kids to D.C. for a chess tournament. And at the time, I didn't have no nonprofit--I didn't have none of that. He saw what I was doing. He was like, oh--he gave me some resources to take the kids up to D.C., and taking those kids from Nellie B area--Nellie B is a housing complex in the Athens community. And I took them up to D.C. and it was kind of like, wow, it was changing there. Like, wow--like, wow! And I remember that, because I remember being a child, like, wow--look at this! Look at this! So, it's just about--expanding their perspective, and I just used chess as the vehicle to do that. You know, it was like, to put them on the chessboard, you know what I'm saying, and then say, "This is you." "What are you going to do? How are you going to do it? Why do you want to do it? When are you going to do it? What are you trying to do with that?" You know what I mean? And just all the six W's, you know what I mean? And that's how it--just kind of flourished into the Chess and Community.

01:16:42Stephens: What has been your experience of how kids react when you break out a chess board, whether one-on-one or in a public space? Because you go a lot of places, you know--where there's not usually chess, and you bring it there. So what has been your experience of how people react?

01:16:59LaRoche: How people react? It's--and that was actually one of the reasons why I introduced kids to chess, because people usually associate chess players with intellectuals or, with great thinkers, with great minds. So if you've been programmed to see these kids as thugs, but then I got you--then you see this thug playing chess, it's kind of like your programming is kind of at war with itself! You know what I'm saying? So it becomes a thing. People are like, "Man, you play chess?" It's like, "What? You can't play chess?" Like, you know, like, "Yeah, we play chess." So, it was always good because it would give that kid confidence, you know what I mean? When he'd see people come, they'd be like, "Man, wow--you play chess? Like, man, you must be very intelligent." And, you know, and the kid would be like, "Yeah, man, yeah, I'm intelligent! Yeah, I'm good," you know? So wherever I would go with chess, it was always like people would really enjoy it. Sometimes people would just sit down and engage. And it's a very social game. Chess is very social. You know, when you play chess, people, you know, encourage you to be silent and everything is going on internally or mentally, you know what I mean? But it's social in a sense where it draws people close. As you play, those who understand the rules just come and watch. Even if you don't understand the rules, people just come and watch. And you just see people engage. And then you get a chance--I'd get a chance to talk to people, and I'd be like, "Hey, yo--meet you--what's your name?" And get the kid to introduce himself and, you know, get the kid to be more sociable, to open up, to express. And so when I would take chess into these different places, it was always like--people were always like, "Wow." You know what I mean? Especially when they see a bunch of young African American boys playing chess, it's like, "Wow, like, this is a good thing you're doing." So what am I doing? I'm just playing chess. It's a good thing, though. It's a good thing. So, I thought that would be one of the strongest vehicles. And when we started, we started saying--it started with chess and pizza. We were just like, "We're going to eat pizzas. We're going to get some pizza. We're going to play some chess." And that's how we got in. We're just going to talk mess to each other and I'm going to teach you a couple of things, and I'm going to learn some things from you. Because as I'm playing chess, believe it or not, it's not the chess, it's the dialogue. We're doing a lot of talking about life and how you see this, how you understand that. Yeah, like wow. And kids just get a chance to talk, so kids be like, Yo, Life, I'm stressed, man. Let's just play chess. And we just play and we just talk, you know what I mean? And so it was a way of just kind of getting them to open. Through the chess board, I was able to see some kids would just react. It was like, I can bet you get into a lot of trouble, right? When you start stuff and you don't finish it, right? How do you know? Just by, "Look, this is what you did. Look, you started this, but then you somehow lost your focus and you went somewhere else." So kids were able to see, like, "Man, I need to change." And I was showing them, "Try this. Try that, using chess." So that's why chess was chosen as the tool.

01:20:08Stephens: So how did you, and I guess a couple other folks, start the Chess and Community Conference Organization?

01:20:15LaRoche: I would say me and my wife, we joke about that all the time because I can remember we were sitting at a Greyhound--and it's crazy, it's like how the ideas come to you, right? We were just sitting at the Greyhound and I was just looking and I was like, I was like, "Baby, I see it so clearly." She was like, "Oh boy, here you go again with that," you know, because I'm one of those philosophical thinkers, she's like--. "Baby, I see it so clearly, like what if we develop an organization where we do this, this," and I just laid out the whole concept for the conference, and the idea behind the conference was--what if we place the issues that we see that is going on in a town, in a city, in a county, in a country, on a continent--what if we place those questions, real questions, and we ask the kids to come up with solutions for it, you know? So that was one of the ideas behind the community. To really focus on an issue that--and every town, it can have it's own unique problems. So if we allow the kids to identify, research, explore the issues. And then we give them a stage to present, that would be pretty cool, right? And then they will be speaking, this is me talking to my wife. They will be talking to a whole bunch of young chess players, strategists and future minds and this and this. So if we can put--merge the philosopher in the room with the chess player and this, then how can we not have a strong world? This is me and she's like, oh boy, here you go again with that crazy--. But that was the concept. So the idea, then, was saying, okay, how--it's a good idea, but okay, how are you going to fund it? You know, that's come down to--how are you going to fund that? Where are you going to get the space from? Who's going to pay for it? How are you going to raise the money to get these kids scholarships? How are you going to do all that? So it was like, let's figure out a way to get the community to--like, this is a community event. Like, let the communities--if the community talk about what they want to see--the business community, the actual community, the churches, if they all--we all have the same mission of inspiring kids, developing leadership. And let's let the community chip into, you know, and my concept was if I can get a hundred businesses to give me a hundred dollars or fifty dollars, then I can begin--. And so I would--so I would always come up with different ideas, just using chess--as if I can--. And it was the support of like Grady Thrasher, just different philanthropists, different philanthropists, in Athens that really believe and want to see Athens grow further, want to see Athens grow, understand that Athens just don't belong to one group of people, that it belongs to everyone. People that want to see change, that want to see positive change. And, I've come to the realization that there's more people in the world who want to see this thing get better. There may be a few that benefits off of the mess, the chaos, because it's all a hustle. It's all about money. Racism is money. Everything is money. But there are those who want to see this thing better, you know what I mean? And--I was able to tap into, and they supported the whole process. They said, "Man, we love the idea. We would--" Because I don't have the money to, you know--I can't afford a 501c. You know, I'm a social worker! We don't make no money! You know, so--it was a lot of people that saw the passion and was like, "Yo, look, whatever you need, let me support you in this process." And from there, we developed the conference--the Chess and Community Conference. And that was the idea behind allowing a community--where we pitched out to all the business community that this is how you can support, you know? This is how you can support. If we can get super PACs to--bring together billions of dollars to influence one person, then surely we can get local businesses to come together to influence a community of people. So, the idea was, you know, introduce different levels to the business and have them just kind of, you know--support. And we allowed, like any conference, we showed the community these are the businesses that supported this process. And to date, we were able to give 16 scholarships away. And all the money has been kind of locally, from the ground, a grassroot approach, and with different philanthropists and different people who believe in the vision of what we're doing, and then continue with the process. So we started with--of course, that one hour a month concept. There's over 720 hours in a month. And I used to always say, if as a community, we can't come together for one hour a month, then we belong--we deserve everything that happens to us. If as a country, as a city, as a county, we can't come together and really begin to discuss real solutions, then we're gonna continue to go through the issues that we go through. So, using that one hour a month, I applied it to myself and began with the chess, teaching kids chess. And one became three, and three became four, and four became eight, eight became ten, and now we're up to--like 80, almost anywhere between 50 and 80 kids come into Chess and Pizza once a month. And then it came into, can we do it weekly at the library? So we got anywhere from 20 to 40, 50 kids coming at the library every Monday. And I didn't--cuz at first I'm like, okay, with the video games, these kids are really not into chess, man. But you learn that like, more and more kids like are really engaged, they love the game and more than just a game, I think the social interaction--where a lot of these kids, everybody's being drawn into computers and into me, my world, my identity, hide! You know, where now there's a platform where you can--like on a--you can go on a basketball court and you can play ball and just talk and form--where it says you can come together, and they form relationships, and they talk, and they look forward to coming together. And these kids and--all different races and that's what Athens is supposed to look like, you know. That's what we say we want. So we just began to put that in practice and one thing led to another, then we--you know, Chess and Climbing and we take the kids to Stone Mountain and they get the perspective--change the perspective. So that's what the documentary, Life to Griot, was about. It was to really change their perspective, show people that this is what one hour a month, this is what me just taking a couple of kids and a chessboard, this is what it eventually grown into. Imagine the things that you can do. Like we all have power to influence, to change, to make some things happen, so that's what Chess and Community developed in. Another--Big Dog on the River, my friend Steven, he said, man--he saw the documentary, he was like--I love what you're doing with the kids, I would love to get these kids on the river. So we developed Chess and Kayaking, the kids get a chance to go kayaking on the river and then afterwards we take over the lounge and we have chess boards set up and it's an opportunity to get parents! Because we tell parents, come on, join your kids! So the parents are out there kayaking with the kids and parents get a chance to engage and so it's just about really kind of bringing the community together with chess.

01:28:38Stephens: So, when you--you've talked about structures and you've talked about sort of on-the-ground work, just relationship based sort of work. I'm wondering what you see as being the relationship between the two or--how does, you know, building this community ultimately change some of the structures that you're talking about?

01:29:04LaRoche: The structures that we see in town

01:29:06Stephens: You've mentioned the prison system in particular as one of them--

01:29:11LaRoche: And it's more--of awareness. The saying goes that you can hide something from somebody in plain sight. Here we are, we have access to endless information. Google. Just Google. But yet, a lot of people don't like to read (chuckles). So, you have access to it, but--then you don't like to read it, you know, so--hiding something in plain sight. The idea was to take some of the things that I saw that was happening in Athens, and I'm sure there's a reason, like--and I talked to the Chief, I talked to the--like, the reason why Athens is bringing, you know--expanding their prisons, because, you know, Athens has to send--these inmates to other states, other jails in other counties, and--money, and so they've decided, "Hey, let's build one here." So I understand some of the reasons for it, but it was a way of--does the community understand what's going on? Does the community know that a $77 million jail is being built? So it was a way of taking the issues that you see that are happening and allowing the youth to voice that. So, by having that discussion, like with the first conference we did, we asked the question, "What would you do with $77 million if you had it? How would you use it to better your community?" And kids would give ideas about, like, I would build a train station from Athens to Atlanta, and whoever ride it, we take that money, put it back in the company. Kids were coming up with, I would build a therapeutic program rather than a jail. The therapeutic program would focus on this and this. So kids were coming up with solutions for what they would do because they had families who were directly impacted by the prison--the expansion of the jail, by the prison complex--so, awareness. I think once the community is aware, then the community will know how to respond. Because if you're not aware that something is happening, because--I'm dealing with other issues. There's so many issues that it's like, where do I point it to? I'm dealing with so many issues. So when the community became aware, then it was like, okay, now how do we influence this? How do we change this? How do we--and a lot of times it's like, well, the decision was already made. The SPLOST was written ten years ago. You're--getting the kids to talk about a mute issue because it was already in the books. But it was that awareness. So that way in the next SPLOST meeting, maybe we have a better turn out. Maybe we get more ears really on the ground. Maybe we get more people to get a better idea of, okay, what can I do? Why don't we do this with the money? Why don't we do this? So I believe once the mass is educated on an issue, you would hope they make the right decision. So, the idea was to really put it in the mind frame and the psychology of kids. Because if we get the young people to begin to think about it, to internalize it, to talk to their friends about it, to talk to their families about it. When they're writing the papers, they research it. They get the teachers, they get different people. That would begin the dialogue, and the prison was just one example. But it was a way of showing the community that Athens belongs to everyone. The mayor, the commissioners, they work for you. (laughs) They work for you! So you are their employer, you know what I'm saying? They are your employees, so put them to work. You know what I mean? Let them know what you think, let them know--but come up with ideas, not just problems, but solutions. So, the conference and what we're doing with chess is about developing the next generation of kids to start thinking more critically like, okay, what can be done to address this issue? If we have a growing gang violence or--gang initiative in Athens, how do we tackle that? But put that in the hands of the youth. How do we address the poverty in Athens? That was the topic for this year. How do we address poverty? And have kids come up with solutions and think about it so that way they can understand how to break it. And each year add in different elements like this year we added an entrepreneurship element to it where these kids would come up, middle school students would come up with ideas for what businesses they would create. And then another, Real LEDGE, they helped to sponsor the seed money to develop those businesses. So, it was a way of bringing more non-profits on board to say--we have all these non-profits in Athens, why is it one of the poorest counties? We have all these non-profits, all these resources, we have a resource of 35,000 students. Why in the world are we having issues here? So, but it's deeper, I mean it's real issues, it's real deep issues, but poverty being the root of a lot of it. So, it was a way, the chess thing was a way of really bringing a community, bringing a level of awareness and developing the next generation of kids to start thinking about strategic solutions for problems. Not just problems, but solutions. How do we address those problems?

01:34:51Stephens: And what year was the first conference?

01:34:53LaRoche: The first conference was in 2012, yeah. That's when our organization, our non-profit was founded. Now, I've been doing what I've been doing for a long time with the kids, but as--with a non-profit. Because it was like, man--we have all these non-profits, why do we need another one? You know, it's hard, you can't really get the resources you need, and a lot of times it was coming out of the poor social worker's pocket. He's like, I can't feed--look, we all get one slice, man, or half a slice, let's break that in half, because you can't afford all of it. So, giving it up there to the community says, well, you know, we got some people in Athens making some serious bread, some serious money. So, let's just kind of spread the love a little bit, you know what I mean? So, let me see if we can get the community to support this initiative. And now, when we do the Chess and Pizzas, we have about 80 kids. Parents just come, sometimes parents be like, yo, here's 20, here's, and we get that, we get all the pizzas, you know what I mean? And the community builds the community, you know what I mean? It's not a top-down structure, but it's more of a bottom-up--where you tell the people on the bottom, you have the power to control what is going on on top! Don't let somebody flip this pyramid upside down. Because when the bottom learn to move together--it collapses. You know what I mean? Rather than allowing things to collapse, let's work together. There should be no--there should be no way in the world that 88 people can control, own more than half of the resources and wealth on the planet. Like, are you kidding me? Like, you know, but it is a reality. Like, put me in that shoe, let me be one of the 88--part of that 1% that can own, and I would think that I can really resolve a lot of things. But maybe that's part of the overall agenda. To keep things where they are, to keep the prisons flourishing, to keep this people poor and this-- so there's no. Like people need jobs, people--so when you step back and really kind of look at things for what it is, it's not a, it's not a pretty picture, you know. Because it's like, it's business as usual, you know, and my thing is--at least, I don't want to adopt that--pessimistic. I don't want to adopt that hopeless, like--ah, man, you know--hopeless mentality. So it's like, let me play my part, let me play my position, let me do what I can to change this thing.

01:37:34Stephens: You talked about looking at things sort of as they really are, in awareness, and I'm wondering if people understand the reality of why, you know--why kids from around here are getting put in prison or put in--or getting arrested and put in jail for a time. And I'm wondering if, if you could speak at all to just what you've seen, you know, as far as trends--what sorts of things are, are actually happening as opposed to what people might think is happening?

01:38:06LaRoche: It's, I mean, it's--layers upon layers of it. I mean, the juvenile system has kind of restructured itself in a way where it's now beginning to, just kind of separate--the severity of crime. For instance, a kid could have a runaway, and things escalate to the point where the runaway is in jail, in a YDC. Like, you're in a YDC for running away? Like, how many times I ran? You know what I'm saying? Like, how many times, you know--where you're next to a kid that really did some robbery? And so the juvenile system now is changing a lot of its codes in a way where they start to really address some of the severe issues with severe consequences and some of the less severe--let's put things in perspective. So, when you see the issues in Athens, it--I mean, these kids, when you have the poverty that we have in Athens and sometimes you don't see it. And that's the thing, it's like, when you come to the town, you don't see it! It's like, Wow, UGA! You have kids all over Georgia that can't wait to get to Georgia, to UGA, to Athens. Whereas you got kids in Athens that can't wait to leave. That's--I can't, you know, the first minute I get, I'm out. I'm gone. So a lot of the issues, I mean, you have your--it's a lot of burglary. Why do we have burglary? Burglary is a thing of somebody wants something. They get the stuff, they find a way to sell it, get money. You know what I mean, for whatever reasons. You know, so there are levels of the crime, what you see in Athens. And then, you know, you have--a lot of police officers that I've got a chance to really meet a lot of police officers and really talk with them and understand, even befriend a lot of police officers locally. And you can understand, like, to see things from their perspective on how they see it. So there's no one answer for what you're saying, I'm saying. And it's like, they--they get incarcerated for so many different things. But what you do see is cycles, cycles of, you know--the gang initiative is growing because a lot of kids--what happens, like in one of the poems you and me talked about when I was--talk about when the father is incarcerated. We have a foster care crisis in the state of Georgia and throughout the world. Where are the foster--we need more foster parents. What happens to the parents? You know what I mean? Why are there so many men incarcerated, you know? Like, your kid went to jail for having weed, but now the states are talking about legalizing it? Like, okay, so what happened to all those people that did all that time for marijuana? But now you can legalize and you can make money off it on the stock market and invest in hemp and--. So it's always, okay, so it's this--when these kids do it, the kid go to jail, get two years for selling this, but you can sell this at these different stores all day. So--it becomes a thing where we look at policies and it's like, "Man, this thing is ugly." And it's--when you build it, they will come, you know what I mean? So you build 77--and you put money into a jail, guess what? You will fill it up. And only in another 10 years they'll say, "Hey, we need to build a bigger one." Because--there are different approaches, there are different things we can--there are different measures we can take, there are different directions we can run. So, a lot of kids find themselves in these situations, and a lot of it is, you know, kids. The same mistakes I did, I made as a child. The same mistakes you probably made as a child. You know, I mean, you grow up in a little town, and we grow up, you know, where you--we make mistakes, we do things. But--the programming is in a sense--in such where, when this kid--it is a crime, let's put on the news, let's give him the mug shot, let's give him the ugly, muggly face, you know what I mean? And make everybody fear, fear, fear, be afraid, they're criminals! And it's that type of programming that it's like--let's find a way to stop that. Because there's a lot of good happening in this town that you don't hear about, that you don't see. But the minute you hear one thing, it begins to taint. UGA: "Don't go into the community." Why? "Look, criminals. And it's like, come on. There's a lot of good things happening. And in what we were doing, we was trying to just showing that throughout my time in Athens. So they come in, they go in and out for a lot. And there are real issues in Athens. And the students on campus, as well as the people in position, they can make a lot of--I'm able to do what--we're able to do what we're doing with--really no resources in bringing the town together. Imagine when you do give us resources, and the levels we can take it and expand it internationally and get these kids exposed to different things, but things takes time and things take steps. So, you know, maybe one day I'll tap into that Bill Gates--Bill and Melinda Gates money, you know what I mean?

01:43:27Stephens: Well, what are some of the organizations that you see--I mean, you mentioned Grady Thrasher, you mentioned--you obviously talked about Chess and Community. What are some of the good things going on in Athens and organizations that you've seen doing work that is--

01:43:40LaRoche: Man, where do you begin? I mean, you've got the Rites of Passage. You've got Community Connection. That's more of a structure, but it's about really bringing awareness to the communities. You have Destined, which is an organization a lot of people don't know--but high success rate of getting kids together to learn and getting kids to read and--. And you got Dr. Bailey--got his program on UGA's campus, the Saturday School. You got Athens Tutorial. You got Godly Girls. I mean, there are tons of organizations that are doing different things in the community that don't have resources, that don't have the money. And that's when people see it, they're like, "Wow." There is always money for jail, but there seems to never be money for our organizations, you know what I mean? So, this is why people start to look at it and say, "Okay, what is the real agenda here?" Is the agenda to really assist and help, or the agenda is to incarcerate, put them away, but at some point, that person's going to have to come back home. You know what I mean? That's the reality. At some point, you can't lock a person away forever. At some point, he or she is gonna have to come home. So you can either address the situation here, at this stage, at this age, or you're gonna have to face it when it comes back and there are no jobs, and I got a criminal record, and I can't work. Now, I'm desperate. Now, I'm really, I had time to think. (chuckles) And I had time to join other organizations and learn all kinds of things in there. Now I can really put some damage to this community. So it's good to address it at a young age, and figure out a way to resolve, and inspire, and encourage, and motivate. But there are a lot of organizations on the ground. I would do injustice if I had to sit here and just name- because somebody would be like, Oh, you didn't name my organization! But there are a lot of organizations in town that are doing a lot of great things. Peer Court--I love that program, where kids get a chance to inspire each other. Kids become the judge, the jury, and they influence other kids. My boy John Nash got an organization where--like a non-violent, where the kids, they resolve their issues, find ways to resolve conflict--conflict resolutions, you know. So there's a lot of different people doing a lot of different things. It's just one--I think one of the issues, how do you get the community to buy into a lot of it? Because this is a community that sees itself as UGA's experiment. So how do you get them to buy into something? You know what I mean? Oh, UGA just want to use the data and we collect data on homeless and this and that and we get grants and we still have a homeless issue. We still have, you know what I mean? Oh, the data that you collect is used against me 20 years later. You know, so it's like, oh boy, you know, how do you work? So, a lot of people are at a point where--and I think it becomes not just in this community, but the African American community as a whole--don't really trust the government in a lot of ways because it's like, you've always experimented; Tuskegee and syphilis. And you've always--it's always--and then it's just, oh, We're sorry. And then, all the data that was collected is now being used to--how to manipulate. And now there's music, and how we can use music to manipulate and sell information. And it just becomes like--and that, what you see is going on on a broad level, is going on in Athens. And how do we get the community to buy into something that can really help, you know what I mean--in a lot of ways. When you look at it like--it's not help, it's an agenda. It's an agenda behind it. What's the agenda? So people don't even trust people no more.

01:47:34Stephens: So what do you think has to be done to get people to buy in or to build that trust that's been broken?

01:47:50LaRoche: I think people have to--what we've been trying to do is make people involved. When a person becomes involved in a situation, when we tell parents to buy into what we're doing, like let's go to--like you come be a part of the Chess and Kayaking. I'm taking the kids to DC and like, I just try to find a way to engage and involve people in a way where they know there is no agenda. Like I'm not making no money from this. What money I'm making? If anything, I'm giving money that I don't have. So when a community see that okay, like this is something sincere, then they begin to--you know and and it's--get to know a person one-on-one and not come in with, "Oh man I know what you're going through." "Oh, really? What am I going through?" You know? You really? What--so what am I dealing with? You know, so getting to know a person and talking to a person and--that basic human bonding, you know what I mean? Not coming to a premature conclusion of what something is but being open, engaged and talking.

01:49:00Stephens: What about how long you've been here? I mean--

01:49:02LaRoche: Yes.

01:49:02Stephens: --that's the other thing, right?

01:49:04LaRoche: Yeah.

01:49:04Stephens: You talked about the transients of the UGA community. You've been you've been in Athens for sixteen years almost.

01:49:10LaRoche: Yeah, that--that definitely plays a role because even at then it's--I'm still seen as, okay, Who are you? And I think just now, people start to see okay--you are about trying to bring something positive here. You're not just doing something because it's a project and then you're gonna leave. You know, you are about--trying to do something. So it takes time--things takes time to build and--it's a process. You know, how do you break a generation--how do you break something that's ingrained and something is--you know. You understand there's a reason why there's a mistrust and how do you try to say? "No, that's not me I'm not doing that." That's it--just do it. Whether you assist or not, I'm going to do it. It's going to get done whether one or a thousand people show up. I'm going to do what needs to be done. I try to do something minus ego. Take the ego out. "Oh, no one showed up, that means I'm--or I didn't get no money, so that means I'm going to wait for next year and go out for more grants and funding. I didn't get no money, so I'm going to wait for next year." No, regardless of what it is, let's just do it because it needs to be done. If the community sees that it needs to be done, they will support it. If not, it will just be me and a couple of kids playing chess, and guess what? I'm okay with that. You know what I'm saying? I'm okay with that. You just do the best you can. Do the best you can.

01:50:37Stephens: I've got a couple more things, two more things I want to ask you. But before I do, is there anything in particular that you wanted to speak to or that you had?

01:50:50LaRoche: I'm good. I'm good.

01:50:53Stephens: Okay. Um, so you, you're a relatively new father.

01:50:58LaRoche: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Fatherhood!

01:51:02Stephens: How old is your son?

01:51:03LaRoche: He's about fifteen months now. And, uh, yes--if you can see the bags in my eyes, that means I'm still having--now he's just starting to get to the point where he's trying to sleep through the night. Just like last couple nights. It's been like, okay, he made it! He made it. But last night was a rough one. You know, whenever you've got an interview coming up, you're like--he knows it's like, yes: "Ah!" (mimics baby crying) All night long. No! I got an interview, son! But yeah, I'm a new father.

01:51:29Stephens: What--what are you hoping this community will be for him?

01:51:36LaRoche: Oh man, it's--well, how can I say it in a way--to bring an African American boy into this society that have been programmed to hate boys. You know what I mean? I'm not saying they have--it's just a programming place, to label those boys. They're cute when they're young, but they reach a certain age, they're monsters--lock 'em up, throw away the key. I see that, it is my duty to try to create the atmosphere that I want to see for my son. So when I--sometimes I bring my son and I'm playing chess and he's sitting there and he's just looking around, you know--and I hope that there is a world that is a lot more--people are not so judgmental. Because, you know, the direction that it's going--it's like, it's ugly. You know, you read the blogs and the replies and it's like, man, you know--if you can see like how--so much hate. It's like, wow, wow, where is this coming from? You know? And, you know, that has always been a fear of mine, like in the sense of I can deal with it, you know what I mean? I'll do it all day, because I laugh at it, or I challenge it in whatever way I can. But I think no father, no man, no mother, no parent wants to see their child go through anything, you know what I'm saying? Where the person--he gets killed because the other person had an ignorance about him or the other person has been programmed to believe, you know, he was--so to tell him, look, you can't--don't wear no hoodie, you know, walk bare feet. Matter of fact, take your shirt off, you know, have your hand up, crawl on your belly! So that, you know--like, you don't want to--I'm not going to tell your child to do that! You're not going to tell your child to do that for me, why should I tell my child to do that, you know what I mean? But, I have to teach him to walk as tight and neat as he can so that don't offend nobody--so nobody could be afraid because of your program--because of their programming. And that's the fear, that's the fear of--you want to leave the world better, you want to leave the world better than you received it. So that is a lot of the motivations for why I do what I do with poetry. Why I do what I do for the Athens community, why I try to do what I can to bring the community together, and hoping that those kids who are 10, who are 7, who are 11 and 13, by the time they become men, by the time they become teenagers and they become men and they're in positions to do policies, they won't see my son from a program perspective. But, No, no, I know his father. You know what I'm saying? His father really is about trying to help. That's not, that's not the issue--like let's not generalize this entire African-American community, let's not generalize the entire white community, you know what I mean? So what do I want to see? It's like I want to see a better world for my son, you know, I want to--I want him, I mean--and it's just not the issues with the race, but even from internally, within, like the programming. Like, I don't want him to watch that television, like how do--you know, you can tell a child all day long how beautiful he or she is, but then the child still grow up to believe that she's ugly. It's like where do you get that from? It's a programming that's in place, you know what I mean? What is this programming? So it's a lot of subliminal programming that's taking place and it's like you want to shelter, you wish you can just like, no--but you can't. You shelter them, you know, when the storm come and you move the shelter, they're left helpless. So you--I do what I can, you got to prepare them, but how do you prepare? How do you prepare your son to deal with a police officer who's been programmed to hate him? And not know that he's programmed to hate him? Or let's say use his mug as a target practice as we see what's going on, you know? It's like how do you program your son to deal with that? How do you program your Black son who's going to be a Black man in America? You know, we can say, oh man, get over it. No, there's no racism in the world. It's changed. We have a Black president. Well, let's see what happened when we got the Black president. It's like the underbelly came up, the acid came up and it's just rotting everything around it. And so it's like, how do you teach your son to deal with that? That there are real issues, that you want to face racism. You want to face the sting of life. How do you teach that? You got to teach him to love when--another person is teaching his son to hate. Like, so I'm going to love you, and you're just going to keep smacking me. I'm going to just turn the cheek after you? No. How do you teach that? How do you teach your son that, Son, you going to be a target. The world has been programmed to hate you for--whatever reason. The world has been programmed to see you as a criminal, as an animal, as a thug, as a rapist, as a--without even--the world has been programmed to see that of you. How do you teach your son to deal with that world? That's not an easy role for no parent. You know what I mean? No parent. It's not easy. So, you know--if the world is programmed to see me as saying I'm not supposed to have feelings, "Oh, African-American men, they don't take care of their children." No, that's not true. Man, I know a lot of good fathers, man, who, you know--and how do you, like, what's going to turn you into a monster when something happened to that one thing you love? And you're supposed to just take it and let justice do its job. And justice--has been programmed as well! So how do you deal with, like, how do you as a father, how do you deal with that? And it's--hard. It's--real. It's real conversations that needs to have, that we have. You know, I'm reading books to him, you know, "The Alchemist," reading books to him at his young age. He's looking at me, you know, moving through the pages and just trying--how do you prepare him in a real, real way in a world that, you know, where the gun sales are just getting more and more. And it's like, how do you really? You know, we see it. We see what's going on. We see the hate. We see the militias. And I'm not saying that militias are all hateful. They have their own issues with the government, and you see the--Die, and, We need to just kill them, the police officers saying things. And it's like, how do you train your son to deal with that? How do you train your children to deal with that? You know what I'm saying? So it's not, it's not an easy conversation to have, but I encourage other fathers that you--change. You--you provide whatever change you can. This is what I can do for my community. This is what I can do to bring my community together in a way where those kids who may end up being his teacher--you know what I'm saying, can understand, this is what his father tried to do for us. His father was about really helping us come together and play chess, whether I'm around or not. Whether--good Lord decided to take me away or keep me around for a couple years, you know what I mean? So it's--you just do the best you can in shaping the minds of the next generation so that they don't adapt a lot of the bitter, or the hatefulness, or the ugliness that was passed down, you know what I mean? And you, you just try to be an example and teach my son to be respectful, be loving, love, but defend yourself. Don't be a coward, you know. Don't just let somebody just--you know what I mean. But don't, because it--you allow somebody to do that, their hate is turned inward. And if you just allow--the anger to project it outward, then it, you just, you know, you burn something down, you know what I'm saying? You, you become aggressive and you angry. He's aggressive, he's angry. So I need to take it inward and depression, self-destruct, you know what I'm saying? So where's that medium? Where's that balance? And how do we release in good ways? You know, dude, let's play chess. Let's talk about it because we all are walking with the same pain, you know what I mean? So let's, let's talk about it. Let's express it to each other. Let me--look, you white, I'm Black. Okay, there you go, I'm going through that too. Now you're going, Yeah, I'm going through that! You know what I mean? So we--we're dealing with the same pain. We have industries and people that profit off of fair--fair sell guns, you know what I mean? Fair--they wrote law, you know what I mean? Fair, you know, and it's just about, you know--teaching, teaching them to do the best you can. Just do the best you can. I'm going to do the best I can. And I'm going to do the best I can to mold the next generation so that--it takes a village to protect. It takes a village to raise, you know what I mean? And hopefully those values that I share with these kids, they can use it for--in their life lessons and them growing up to be men and women, teachers and doctors, and lawyers and judges, and policymakers and senators, and they can remember those lessons and they can say, you know what? That's not true. Let's try--look at this, in case somebody tried to program them to do something negative.

02:02:07Stephens: One of the ways that you deal with some of these very difficult questions that often don't have clear answers is through poetry. And so if you have the energy still, we've been talking for a while, but if you have the energy, I would love to hear--I would love to hear, you know, a piece or part of a piece that you feel like is--

02:02:26LaRoche: I always have energy for poetry because, like you said, it comes through us, and I think this poem can really reflect what we're talking about now. And the name of the piece is called "Georgia." Excuse me (clears throat). It says: "Spread my ashes over the mountains of North Georgia. Bury me deep in Confederate clay. Let my bones purify the soil that were cursed by the trees that unwillingly partook in illegal lynchings. And those trees carved and ashed away in fire worship rituals. Burning crosses display a deep love and devotion for God, yet a deeper hate for God's creation of the darker brothers. Daddy's doctrine still rots the core of the sweet and tender peach, born with love in their hearts. Warm spirits baked by the Southern sun and cooled by the mist of the Savannah breeze. I lost my patience in the concrete jungle of a cold city, but I found her while holding a fishing rod on the Oconee Creek. It was there that the trees made this confession. Then the flapping of an old flag, it broke my meditation. Worn on the skull of an innocent and impressionable cub who stared at me with young eyes but carried old hate. It is your generation who must break your father's curse. It is our generation who must break our father's curse. Climb out of the hate holes they have dug in our hearts, so we can once again learn to love whole. Love whole."

02:04:33Stephens: Thanks.

02:04:34LaRoche: Yeah.

02:04:37Stephens: Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk with us and thank you for sharing that at the end.

02:04:42LaRoche: Yeah, because--it's our country, you know what I mean? We're either going to work together and secure another planet, or secure another hundred thousand years for our children's children's children's children. Or we're going--to rip each other apart with hate. You know? And turn our planet into a war zone, you know--one of the two. But I believe humanity still has it in them. I believe there's more love in humanity than hate, you know what I mean? And, you know, that's why I do what I do. And if that could be an example for others, let it be. And, you know, just everyone do your part. Do your part.

02:05:34Stephens: Thanks Life.

02:05:35LaRoche: Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END