TAPE: 14 [14]14:01:24
INTERVIEWER : All right, this is an interview with Richard Shinholster at, at
the Civil Rights Museum. If you could start with your family's background and their involvement in the different aspect of the Civil Rights in the early '60s.[14]14:01:49
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Well, uh, there, there was six of us. I have three sisters
and, there are three boys, three girls. Uh, Earl is the youngest. Uh, I'm the oldest and we have one, uh, in between--[14]14:02:01
INTERVIEWER : (OVERLAPPING) Brother.
[14]14:02:02
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : --uh, brothers. Three, uh, brothers there. Um, George is
interesting. Uh, George was a, the middle boy. Uh, George came about at the time of the integration of schools. In fact, uh, George was one of, um, students who, uh, the seven who integrated (SOUNDS LIKE) Groves High School, um, along with Sage Brown, uh, who is now an attorney here in Savannah and a few others. Uh, George, George's interest, uh, grew in the area of Civil Rights from that experience.[14]14:02:38
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : He also was one of the first students to enter Armstrong.
Uh, junior, it was, it was junior college at the time and, uh, later, uh, of course, became a four year institution. But George, along with Otis Johnson, uh, were one of the first to, uh, integrate Groves, uh, um, to integrate Armstrong.[14]14:03:00
INTERVIEWER : Those kids had a lot of gumption to sacrifice their senior year of
high school to go into what was a perilous situation.[14]14:03:16
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Well, George had, was attending, uh, Tompkins High School,
was a senior and, uh, risen to the, uh, uh, occasion of being, uh, would have been, like, class president that next year of his senior year. But, uh, because, uh, Mr., Mr. Law's influence, uh, and especially some of the other people that worked with Mr. Law, uh, one of the people who worked with Mr. Law, Miss Lottie Banner was a good friend of our family's and introduced Mr. Law to my mother and, and, and helped to, uh, to convince her this was the right thing to do.[14]14:03:54
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Of course, there was a lot of, a lot of misgivings because
he was a, it was his senior year and there was a lot of uncertainty about what was going to happen. Uh, but George decided he wanted to do it and my mother, uh, gave him permission to do it. Uh, and he, uh, became one of those students then who, uh, integrated the schools. They tell some very interesting stories, George along with some of the other students about, uh, how they were treated while they were at, uh, uh, Groves High School.[14]14:04:28
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : And I think some of these things probably help convince
them that, uh, that they must pursue civil rights. Uh, I think this made it easy so that when George graduated from, uh, from, uh, Groves that he went on to Armstrong. Uh--[14]14:04:45
INTERVIEWER : He had to de-segregate it.
[14]14:04:47
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Exactly. Exactly. At that point, uh, the NAACP, uh, was
becoming very active. Uh, there was a new person who was emerging. Uh, that was Jose Williams. Uh, and Jose decided that he would, uh, form another organization. Uh, I think that's probably as Mr. Law has mentioned, there was some difference in strategies, uh, and, uh, George decided to work with the crusade for voters, which was a arm of the NAACP originally, but later, uh, Jose took this organization, uh, further, uh, and George went, uh, decided to work with this organization and with Jose Williams.[14]14:05:38
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : And, uh, left college, uh, to follow Jose Williams, who
went to Atlanta and joined up with Dr. King and, uh, traveled across the country, uh, with Dr. King. This probably was the experience that, um, determined what Earl would do, more so than myself and more so than anyone else. His older brother, who was George, was active, who was, uh, traveling with Dr. King, who would come back and just tell us stories, uh, about his travels with Dr. King. Tells an interesting story, uh, and Earl will repeat this from time to time.[14]14:06:21
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : They were traveling in Alabama, uh, doing voter
registration activities and George, another, uh, black, uh, uh, Civil Rights worker and a white Civil Rights worker were in a, in a car together somewhere in, uh, rural Alabama. Some, I don't recall now exactly where, but somewhere in rural Alabama. Uh, police stopped them one night as they were finishing up, uh, voter registration, getting back to where they were staying. And they were stopped and as, as George tells the story, the police asked, stopped them and asked them what was their name.[14]14:06:57
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : And they, I don't recall the, the black fellow's name, but
he asked him what was his name and he gave him a name, um, uh, Tom Brown and said, fine. And he asked, uh, the, the white fellow his name and he gave him a name and then he asked George what was his name and George said, George Shinholster. He said the man hit him in the head with a billy club, says, there's no nigger named Shinholster, so I want to know your real name. And George would come back and tell us those kind of stories and, uh, I mean, just, just intrigue us.[14]14:07:25
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : And I think Earl, uh, decided that he would also, uh,
become active, uh, and so as Mr. Law looked for leadership with the Youth Council, uh, Earl became that person. I think, uh, of course, Earl was, Mr. Law became a, a mentor, uh, for Earl and, uh, Earl became the president of the Youth Council, uh, and there are just many stories that, uh, that we could, I could tell about, uh, of course about Earl. But that, I think, led our family, got us all involved, uh, in one sense or another with, uh, Civil Rights movement through those.[14]14:08:09
INTERVIEWER : So in what ways was Mr. Law a mentor?
[14]14:08:13
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Well, uh, Earl became president of the Youth Council. Mr.
Law insisted that they study, that they learn their history. Uh, that they would know how to stand up and speak, uh, concerning their rights. Uh, I, I can recall one incident where, um, Earl went to, Earl was sort of a rebel for a large part of his life and, uh, one day he went to school with no, without socks. And the, the school, which was interested in having the best kind of behavior on the part of the students, they (WORD?) teacher say, we will not allow you in this class without socks on.[14]14:08:57
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : So they put him out of school. The next day all of the
boys at Tompkins Middle School took their socks off and came to school. Uh, I, and I, and I have no proof of this, but I, I'm sure they, uh, that Mr. Law was pleased with their ability to organize. Uh, the, of course, the Principal realized that this was not a, a place to have a major confrontation. He let the boys back in school. Uh, but, but that was sort of the kind of leadership. They became known as the No Socks Club. (LAUGH) Uh, he went on to Savannah, uh, State during the summers doing (SOUNDS LIKE) Upward Bound with one of the early Upward Bound students.[14]14:09:38
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : And there they, uh, through the Youth Council, uh,
confronted the City of Savannah about jobs for youth during the summer and was, was responsible for some of those early youth programs that employed students. So and, and all this was done under Mr. Law's leadership. So Mr. Law was able to guide them into how to present themselves, how to make demands, how to have done the homework necessary to make those demands stick.[14]14:10:07
INTERVIEWER : One of the things that's interesting is just as (SOUNDS LIKE)
Ralph Mark Gilbert had welcomed Mr. Law and the members of the Youth Council in the '30s and '40s, Mr. Law was receptive to the next generation coming up in the '60s.[14]14:10:24
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : (OVERLAPPING) Yes, exactly. Exactly. And, uh, it was, uh,
there are many, uh, many young people, uh, that have gone on to have careers in, uh, in Civil Rights that were definitely, um, a product of Mr. Law's early teaching. Like Caroline Coleman Quillen, Caroline Quillen Coleman, uh, James Brown, who, who is deceased now, but, uh, was a, uh, contemporary of Bobby Hill that went on to become the regional director of the NAACP for the, uh, New England area. And, uh, many of these students who, who came through, uh, did go on to make contributions.[14]14:11:04
INTERVIEWER : So the Savannah movement under the direction of Mr. Law was a
training ground for another generating.[14]14:11:10
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Exactly. Exactly. There's no question about it. Uh, and
many of the, of the students who went on, uh, who worked with the Civil Rights movement here, many, many students did go on to college. And I think this was a, this was unique to many of the Civil Rights, uh, uh, activities in other cities that those young people did see education as being, uh, important. I think this, again, was, was, uh, because of Mr. Law and his insistence on persons being able to speak correctly, to know their history, to be able to strategize, to make plans before taking actions.[14]14:11:49
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : And all of these are certainly marks of people who, uh,
have taken advantage of educational opportunities. So I think that, uh, that Mr. Law was very instrumental in encouraging many, uh, people to go on to college who were, uh, involved in the Civil Rights movement at the high school level.[14]14:12:09
INTERVIEWER : When you were growing up what was his reputation in black Savannah?
[14]14:12:15
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Uh, well, you know, in, in and I think that there may have
been, uh, a perception of there being two, uh, uh, reputations, I, I think that Mr. Law was looked on as a champion, someone who would stand up to white people and, and express the, the emotions that many people, uh, other blacks would have but did not know how to, uh, express. So they looked on Mr. Law as, as being that, of, of a fearless leader who would say what had to be said and couldn't be bought. Uh, and then in the black community, I think Mr. Law was, was, was looked on as someone, uh, who would, as we would say, tell it like it is.[14]14:12:56
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : If, if there were people who were not doing what they
could do to support the movement, Mr. Law would challenge them. And in many instances, uh, many meetings that we attended, uh, part of that meeting was done with challenging various, uh, parts of the black community. So Mr. Law was, I think, did have that duel, uh, uh, reputation and as, or had a reputation in the black community and a reputation in the white community.[14]14:13:25
INTERVIEWER : And it wasn't always easy to hear that challenge.
[14]14:13:29
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Oh, it's, it's very biting sometimes because he, he, he,
he felt that, uh, blacks should be behaving in a certain manner and when they weren't, he was simply, he would, he would say it. He would tell them. (WORD?), you know, and he would do it publicly. So it, it might be embarrassing sometimes, but, uh, if he felt it needed to be said, Mr. Law would say it.[14]14:13:53
INTERVIEWER : I've heard that he had no problems denouncing people
(UNINTELLIGIBLE) [14]14:14:01RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : (OVERLAPPING) Exactly. Exactly. He would certainly say it.
He would call their names and he, uh, and, and this was, of course, uh, one way that Mr. Law and the people who supported Mr. Law, uh, would be able to insure that they could, uh, determine what the black community would do. Uh, by using these kind of strategies.[14]14:14:27
INTERVIEWER : If you were to talk about his significance and legacy in this
community, what kind of things would you want to say?[14]14:14:38
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Uh, his, his, Mr. Law created not only this museum, but
Mr. Law was responsible, uh, for the Beech Institute, King Tisdale, the African-American, uh, Trail of, the black history trail. Um, his significance is that he took all of his years of experience and his, uh, passion for justice and equality and, uh, after retiring, converted all these into tangible institutions that would be able to tell, uh, not necessarily his story 'cause I think Mr. Law is a modest man in that respect, but the story of a people and the people in Savannah. And, and I think that, that legacy has got to go on and he is responsible for, uh, shaping that story.[14]14:15:38
INTERVIEWER : When you think about him, what comes to mind?
[14]14:15:50
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Well, Mr. Law is, when my brother was, uh, involved in the
accident and, and we had the funeral, uh, one of the people that personally called and asked and to tell was Mr. Law. Uh, if there was one person who significant events in the black community that they must, uh, he must be informed of, it's, it, it, we thought that Mr. Law had to know that Earl had been killed in a automobile accident. Uh, and that at the funeral we wanted him to come. And he agreed to come. Uh, I think that meant, uh, more to me and my family than, than we could, than could just be expressed.[14]14:16:44
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Because this was a, this was the one person in the black
community that we all were proud of. We, we just felt that, uh, W. W. Law had to be there to see this transition of, of one of the people who he helped to, to create. Uh, at the time I was here at the museum. We were just getting things started here and Mr. Law, uh, was the person who, uh, when I needed advice went to. Sometime it was good, sometime it was biting. Sometimes he told me things I needed to hear. But he was the person who you, if you wanted the barometer this was the person you went to.[14]14:17:28
INTERVIEWER : You talked before how your brother Earl (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
[14]14:17:40
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Yes, well, um, Earl always, whenever he would come to
town, one of the first places he would go would be to Mr. Law's house. I can remember on one occasion I went to Mr. Law's house with Earl and had a chance to see Mr. Law's library. That was the most awesome experience that I had. Books that were, uh, autographed personally by some of the great. Langston Hughes, Richard Wright, uh, uh, you could almost just go down the line. Mr. Law had personal autographs from all of these people. And like I said, I got that introduction, uh, to see him that way through Earl.[14]14:18:22
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Earl got to know Mr. Law on a personal, uh, uh, basis and,
uh, he wanted to, uh, emulate Mr. Law, Mr. Law in terms of Mr. Law's ability to know the history. Earl was an avid reader and I think part of that, uh, part of that came from Mr. Law. Earl read at least two to three newspapers a day. And I think that, uh, that was part of the training that Mr. Law gave. And, um, just, just always had the ultimate, uh, respect for, uh, Mr. Law as a leader.[14]14:18:59
INTERVIEWER : Leader, respect, dignity. These are words that come up. Talk about
the evolution and plans of this museum.[14]14:19:15
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Well, I just, it, it became, I was, I've been a school
teacher most of my life or in, (SOUNDS LIKE) in the education, a school teacher, an administrator. And I've, I've had the experience, uh, to meet many young people and it, it just seems to me, uh, in my last decade or so, uh, I'm, I begin to meet young people that just had no ideas of, of, of the history of black people. Here in Savannah, in the south and in this, in this country. Uh, and it became disturbing that most young people would know, uh, Martin Luther King, Jr., but beyond that people, they, they didn't know this.[14]14:20:01
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Uh, when I visited the museum and started to work here as
a volunteer, I saw this as an opportunity to have this story told and to have a place where young, uh, African-Americans as well as all, uh, uh, students and citizens, but especially African-Americans who, uh, who never rode the back of the bus and therefore had no understanding of what that experience was like and what that experience would do to the psyche of a person.[14]14:20:31
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Uh, I saw the museum as having that potential to be able
to tell that story and to tell it in, uh, an attractive way and in a way that could interest young people. So, uh, started here as a volunteer and, and, and, uh, uh, wanted to help the museum tell the story of what we call here the unsung. (TECHNICAL)[B-ROLL]
[14]14:21:00
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Yeah, the, the, the, the museum to me depicted the
experiences of what we call the unsung heroes. Uh, those persons who unselfishly gave of themselves to make the movement successful. Who would not be your, uh, would not be the Martin Luther King, Juniors, would not be, uh, the, uh, Malcolm X's, the other national, uh, uh, figures. But those persons who sacrificed, who were willing to march, who were willing to stand up with Mr. Law and the other leadership of, of, uh, of Savannah. People who, uh, would fix sandwiches so that people on the picket line would be able to eat.[14]14:21:49
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Uh, those persons who put up their property to get, uh,
those young people out of jail, who went to jail. Those stories we feel this museum, uh, tells and, and recognizes those, uh, that those persons. And those are the people who young people we think, I think need to know more about because they're people who were here in this community, in the Savannah community whose relatives are still here in this community. And so we want to, uh, we want to make those people heroes and so the museum, uh, through its various exhibits, uh, through the programs that we sponsor, um, will tell those stories.[14]14:22:40
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Uh, and therefore we believe that if the home has
forgotten the story, the parents can come here and remember the story. Or young people in schools themselves can come and hear, hear their stories with the parents hopefully. And we're finding that that's happening. Many parents now hare bringing their children here because their, the last generation of African-American, uh, uh, parents may not have heard the story themselves. So they can bring the children here and they both can experience and talk about it and the old, and the older ones in many instances can relate to some of the people that they see here. They knew them or they knew of their families.[14]14:23:23
INTERVIEWER : So you see that happen.
[14]14:23:25
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : I see that happening now and that's, that's, that's what
I, I think we're proudest of about this museum. That we're seeing that happen.[14]14:23:34
INTERVIEWER : I was going to ask what the response has been to the museum since
it's been in existence.[14]14:23:39
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Well, I can speak of the last, um, two years that I've
been, three years now that I've been a part of the museum and I've seen that growth. I've seen the public, uh, embrace the museum and, and, uh, are willing to support the activities of the museum. I'm, I'm seeing, uh, families, uh, at special occasions like Christmas this time of the year, uh, in the summer when their relatives come from out of town, that they will bring them to the museum. And I think that's the test. That the museum is filling a need, uh. People are planning family reunions and including the museum in their family reunions.[14]14:24:22
INTERVIEWER : And tell about grandparents bringing their grandkids here.
[14]14:24:37
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Well, I, I've seen, uh, parents and especially parents who
have brought their children in and have watched on video. We have a very compelling, uh, video and I have seen them sitting there holding their childrens' hand actually crying because of some of the experiences that are being related. Things that they have forgotten that, that have really touched their, touched their hearts. And I've seen them actually cry and then come back as they walk through, talk to their children about their experience when they grew up.[14]14:25:10
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Maybe even for the first time. And what it means to be an
African-American in, in the United States of America. That there, that there still are struggles and that they must, uh, be vigilant, they must go to school, they must get an education. Uh, uh, they must know their history. And I'm, I'm hearing parents talk to children about that. I think the museum is playing a role in that. Uh, we are hoping that we will continue that. Uh, we are, we, the museum is currently under renovation.[14]14:25:46
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Part of it will be the establishment of an archive. The
other part, another part of renovation will be, uh, the establishment of the Earl T. Shinholster Learning Center where we will equip this room with computers, uh, we will, uh, provide, uh, history, uh, that can be accessed, uh, on the computers. Uh, we will be connected to the Internet and we will invite school children to come in and use the museum as a, as a laboratory. A place where they can do their research. (TECHNICAL)[B-ROLL]
[14]14:26:42
INTERVIEWER : How does this high tech scenario of the future link to the life
and vision of a very low tech man, Mr. Law?[14]14:26:54
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Uh, Mr. Law has been very encouraging, uh, in our, uh, use
of technology in the museum. I, I think Mr. Law realized, uh, early on as he, uh, helped to develop this museum with some of the audio visuals that he must use the technology. So it was not a difficult sale, sell at all. And we realized that, uh, we must use the technology if we're going to communicate with a generation that's highly technical. That's why, one of the reasons why we want to equip the learning center, uh, with computers.[14]14:27:34
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Uh, many young people now that are in school are computer
literate. Uh, they're not afraid of the computer, they, they utilize it and if we can put the information, uh, on the computer it makes it very accessible for them.[14]14:27:47
INTERVIEWER : (OVERLAPPING) I was being a bit facetious. How does all of the
activity tie in to Mr. Law's life, vision and principles?[14]14:28:13
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : Well, you know, I, I think that, um, one of the things
that I do is teach Sunday School and some time ago and I thought of Mr. Law (SOUNDS LIKE) during that time, we, uh, were studying, uh, uh, uh, the, the Jewish migration, especially when, uh, after Moses died and Joshua became the leader of the, of the group and they crossed the Jordan and they were told to put the stones in the middle of the, of the Jordan. And when someone asked why should they put those stones there, they said, why should they build this monument.[14]14:28:50
RICHARD SHINHOLSTER : So that the children when they ask why are these stones
here, you'll be able to then tell them the story of the people and how God has been with them. And, and I, I see Mr. Law a lot in this vein of wanting to create these, a monument not to himself, but create a monument so that when generations to come need to know the story of a people that they will be able to come to these institutions like the Civil Rights Museum and others, to hear that, that story. And, and I, and I think Mr. Law clearly understands the need to, for the story to continually be told.[B-ROLL] [END OF TAPE: [14]14:30:29]
