Interview with Hunter Holder, September 26, 2017

00:00:00KATE DAHLSTRAND: It is Tuesday, September 26, 2017. My name is Kate Dahlstrand. And I am sitting here with Hunter. If you could tell us your full name, the branch of service that you serve in, and the dates of your service.

00:00:18HUNTER HOLDER: My name is Hunter Martin Holder. I am currently serving in the Georgia Army National Guard. I enlisted in February, 2011.

00:00:27DAHLSTRAND: Okay. And, is this going to be a lifelong thing? Or are you planning on getting out after your contract's over?

00:00:33HOLDER: Yeah, who knows.

00:00:34DAHLSTRAND: Okay. So, you're still up in the air right now. What's your job in the military?

00:00:38HOLDER: Right now, I'm a Chief Warrant Officer II. I'm a Medical Evacuation Helicopter Pilot.

00:00:42DAHLSTRAND: Oh, okay. So then, let's start at the beginning. Why'd you join?

00:00:49HOLDER: I joined after three years of college at Auburn. That was 2008-- excuse me-- 2007 to 2010. Market kind of tanked. And, I was having student loans-- and just looking for a way to kind of pay back for school and do something interesting that other people don't get really get a chance to do.

00:01:10DAHLSTRAND: Are you from Alabama?

00:01:12HOLDER: No. I'm from Georgia.

00:01:13DAHLSTRAND: Okay, where in Georgia are you from?

00:01:16HOLDER: Loganville. Just about 40 minutes west of Athens.

00:01:19DAHLSTRAND: Is your hometown a place where-- Like, are you the standout for joining the military? Or is that how was that received?

00:01:28HOLDER: I wouldn't say it's really the exception. But, it's not very common.

00:01:34DAHLSTRAND: Okay.

00:01:34HOLDER: It's still kind of a small town feel. When I-- A lot of people know what I do now. And I'm really proud of what I do.

00:01:41DAHLSTRAND: Do you still live there? Do you commute?

00:01:43HOLDER: No. I live here in Athens.

00:01:44DAHLSTRAND: Okay. And, how did your parents feel?

00:01:50HOLDER: My mom was very apprehensive of it. She definitely didn't want me to do it. My dad was supportive. He takes a lot of pride-- and you know-- as I was doing it. And after I joined, he was very happy for me.

00:02:05DAHLSTRAND: Okay. Do you have a family history of military service or are you--?

00:02:10HOLDER: No. My dad's dad was an army ranger. He did two or three tours in Vietnam. I'm not really close with him-- but you know-- It's not really a family thing.

00:02:23DAHLSTRAND: Okay. Okay. So tell me about your role in the military.

00:02:28HOLDER: How so?

00:02:29DAHLSTRAND: So, you said that you are a pilot-- or like a medevac pilot. Where did you do your training?

00:02:39HOLDER: All of the flight training takes place at Fort Rucker, Alabama for all of the army. That's where all your initial flight training takes place. So, I actually enlisted as a Black Hawk maintainer. When I got picked up for the Warrant Officer Flight Training Program, I went down to Fort Rucker for the Warrant Officer Candidate School-- which was a seven-week course-- and then from there rolled right into the flight training portions.

00:03:06DAHLSTRAND: Okay. What was-- Give me like a day in the life at Fort Rucker during training.

00:03:12HOLDER: That was a while ago. I don't really remember a whole lot from Warrant Officer Candidate School. It was a very fast-paced school. I do remember wanting to quit multiple times just because the mental aspect was so difficult. They give you 10 pounds of stuff. And you've got to fit it into a 5-pound bucket, so to speak. So that was difficult.

00:03:35HOLDER: I remember we were up around 5:30 every morning. And we didn't go to bed till-- We weren't allowed to go to bed until 10 at night. Very micromanaged. You weren't allowed to use the restroom. You weren't allowed to get up early. You weren't allowed to do all these things. But then, flight school was just as fast paced-- except you had to go home every night and conduct your own sleep schedule as best you could.

00:04:03HOLDER: However, the flight lines changed every morning. So, the morning flight line-- You weren't allowed to drive to the flight line. So, you'd have to drive to a [clearing throat]-- excuse me-- a parking lot, where you'd catch a bus. And the bus left at 4 o'clock in the morning. So, you're waking up at 3 or 3:30 in the morning to catch the bus.

00:04:24HOLDER: Once you got to the flight line, you would have a few minutes to go and grab the weather for the day and get your aircraft assignment. Then, you'll be back in for the morning brief. At the brief, the flight commander who-- depending on what phase of training you're in-- could be a civilian contractor-- or he could be, an Army green suiter. But, he would stand up and he would call on one of the students to answer a daily question. Every day, we had about 20 or 25 questions that we'd have to look up through a stack of publications and regulations. It was about three feet tall.

00:05:02DAHLSTRAND: Mm-hm.

00:05:02HOLDER: So, you'd have to search for these to find answers to these daily questions. And he'd call. And you'd have to stand up. And you'd have to answer the question without referencing your paper. And so, they'd do all these daily questions. There'd be a few minutes for what they call table talk-- which is where you and what you call your stick buddy-- So, you and one other student pilot were paired together with a single instructor pilot.

00:05:28HOLDER: So you'd be at a table for three, two students and one instructor. And he would ask you some more questions. Or he'd teach you something. Or would go over the theory of rotary flight or whatever the case may be. Kind of just waiting for the light to come up-- you know-- daylight. From there, you'd go over to the ALSE shop-- which stands for Aviation Life Support Equipment. And you would pull all of your flight gear. From there, you would-- if you hadn't already gotten the weather-- If you didn't get there early enough in the morning to grab your weather and aircraft assignment, you'd go and do that.

00:06:06HOLDER: You'd file a flight plan. You would hop on a bus to take you to your aircraft. Because the airfield is so large there, you can't walk to the aircraft. So, you'd hop on a bus. And you'd go get your aircraft. You'd go fly for about two hours or so. You'd split that even with your sick buddy. So I'd fly an hour, hour point two. He'd fly an hour, hour point two-- whatever the case may be. You'd come back, turn in all your equipment, and go catch the bus back to the parking lot where you had parked.

00:06:39HOLDER: You'd go eat. You'd have about an hour for lunch. Then, you'd go to the classroom-- the academic classroom-- which is actually on Fort Rucker, not on an airfield. It's an academic building. And there, you would do all your classroom training. So, I can't remember how many classes-- It would be a weather meteorology class, all kinds of theory of flight, going over systems of the aircraft, FAR/AIM-- which is the federal regulations. You go over that kind of stuff. You learn about how to read maps or how to follow a flight plan. You know, this is where all the in-depth classroom training takes place.

00:07:21HOLDER: So, that'd be week one of morning flight line. Then-- the very next week-- They'd flip the script. And you would be afternoon flight line. So then, you would go to the academic classes in the morning, which-- They started at seven o'clock. And you go to lunch--

00:07:34DAHLSTRAND: So you can sleep in.

00:07:35HOLDER: So you get to sleep in a couple hours just to wake up at the ass crack of dawn way before-- when most people are going to sleep. You get to wake up and do that the next week. So, it's very difficult to get a good sleep schedule.

00:07:48DAHLSTRAND: Right. And I'm sure that that's part of it-- is conditioning you to--

00:07:52HOLDER: It's funny-- The very first two weeks of flight school is two weeks of what they call aeromedical. It's just teaching you how your body is affected differently by altitude or how important it is to maintain a normal sleep schedule based on your circadian sleep cycle-- so that you perform well and are not fatigued or over-saturated in the cockpit. And you know-- Two weeks later, they're throwing you on this mixed up sleep schedule.

00:08:22DAHLSTRAND: Now, when you were at the-- I'm assuming you joined at a recruiter's office. Did you know what you wanted to be when you walked in there?

00:08:35HOLDER: I thought so. That was part of the reason why I originally enlisted in the Alabama Guard-- was I went to a Georgia recruiter and told him, "Hey, I went to school at Auburn. I want to go back to school at Auburn and have some help paying for it. And I think if I like the military and stay in, I would like to fly helicopters. So, I want to be around aviation. I want to be an aircraft mechanic."

00:08:50HOLDER: And, without a referencing any kind of books or pulling anything up or-- He just told me that the Georgia Army National Guard would not let me go to school out of state. They wouldn't help me pay for school if I went out of state, especially. And there are no flight slots available for like six years.

00:09:15DAHLSTRAND: Wow.

00:09:17HOLDER: And it's all-- It's all a lie.

00:09:18DAHLSTRAND: Oh, okay.

00:09:19HOLDER: I had no idea. So, I guess we're kind of backtracking-- But, you know-- Yeah-- So, I went to an Alabama recruiter and enlisted through the Alabama Guard to do what I wanted to do. And through initial entry training-- during-- After basic, I was an AIT. And I was only a couple weeks short from graduating AIT when my mom ran into a friend of hers. And they were talking. And her husband was there. And she didn't really know the husband that-- My mom didn't know the husband very well. And she just said that her oldest son was at Fort Eustis up in Virginia finishing up some initial entry training.

00:09:53HOLDER: He was in the Alabama Guard. And at that point, the husband kind of said, "Why is he in the Alabama Guard?" My mom didn't really know what the deal was-- But she just told him, "He tried to enlist in the Georgia Guard. And they told him no-- that he couldn't go to flight school. And they wouldn't let him go to school back at Auburn." And all this kind of stuff.

00:10:14HOLDER: He told my mom straight out. He said, "That's bullshit." He said, "Here's my number. If he's interested in coming to the Georgia Guard and flying, have him call me." So, my mom called me, I guess a few days later. And she said, "You know, I ran into a friend of mine-- that her husband is in the Georgia Guard somehow. And he said to give him a call if you want to fly for the Georgia Guard."

00:10:38HOLDER: And so, I asked her. I said-- You know, here's a private first class holder-- I said, "What's his rank?" And she's like, "Well, I think he's an officer. But I'm not really sure. I don't know what he does." And so, "Okay, I'll give him a call." So I called him. And his name was Chick. And so I said, "Mr. Chick, this is Private First Class Holder. My mom gave me your number. Said that I could call you about blah, blah, blah."

00:11:07HOLDER: And I said, "She wasn't really sure what your rank was. And I want to be able to address you properly." And he said, "Well, I'm a Full Bird 06. But that's not a big deal." And so Private First Class Holder is over here stuttering. He's never even spoken to anyone above a captain. And at that point, you know, when I was speaking to a captain at basic training-- I was, you know, scared out of my mind already.

00:11:28HOLDER: But I met with him on Veterans Day, 2011. And he kind of laid out the plan-- that if I wanted to fly and wanted to come over to the Georgia Guard, here were some benchmarks I needed to make-- And that he wanted me to be really serious about it. If it was something I wanted to do, that he would help me. And so, through a series of events and a longer story, he put me in front of some people that really liked me. He really liked me after our first meeting. And they found a slot for me in the Georgia Guard. They put me in it. And within six months after graduating AIT, I was already at Warren Officer Kent School.

00:12:05DAHLSTRAND: Was the Alabama Guard upset that you had done this?

00:12:10HOLDER: I don't know. I did one or two drills with them. But-- The unit that I was assigned to, the 1204th, was an aviation intermediate maintenance facility. So they didn't actually have any aircraft assigned to the unit. They did intermediate maintenance. So, before-- You know, maintenance-- A unit couldn't perform themselves. It was sent to us if it didn't need to go to the depot level.

00:12:39HOLDER: Anyway, they had just deployed like two or three weeks before I graduated AIT. So, I was in a rear detachment-- Just kind of there filling a slot. So, I feel like they didn't have any issues with letting me go. They didn't need me. There was nothing for me to do-- I mean, I said the first two drills that I did there-- One, I came in and basically just got a locker assignment and did some online training. And then-- I think, the second one-- We cleaned weapons the entire time. Because they had nothing else for us to do. So-- It was a good time.

00:13:10DAHLSTRAND: So, what was your major at Auburn? Was it something that had anything to do with flying helicopters?

00:13:16HOLDER: No. My major at Auburn was architecture.

00:13:21DAHLSTRAND: Okay. Alright.

00:13:23HOLDER: When the housing market tanked, people-- Architects weren't getting jobs. They were losing jobs. They were working, you know, twice hours for double-- or for half the pay. And I just wasn't wanting to do that.

00:13:37DAHLSTRAND: Right. Okay, so-- When you had dreams of being a pilot, and then you're actually turning into a pilot-- Did your new occupation meet your expectations?

00:13:55HOLDER: In some ways it exceeded them. In other ways it fell way short of what I expected.

00:14:01DAHLSTRAND: Okay. How?

00:14:01HOLDER: I guess-- you know-- The most exposure you get to a military pilot as a civilian is a movie like Top Gun or something where, you know-- They're playing beach volleyball. And then they show up to work in their aviators. And they throw on their gear and they hop in an aircraft. And they go and fly. And then they come back they go drink some beer and chase after women and whatever.

00:14:28HOLDER: But it's a lot more work. And granted, the army has a way of sucking the fun out of everything. [Laughing] So, to go and do a two-hour flight, I have to show up four hours early to start knocking out all the paperwork and approval processes. And so it's-- I much prefer flying general aviation if, when it comes to the workload, you just show up and you go fly now-- But the army, we get to do some really cool missions. We get some really cool-- We have the coolest helicopters to fly in my opinion. And we get some approvals that you can't do as a civilian pilot.

00:15:09DAHLSTRAND: So, have you served in a theater of operations?

00:15:13HOLDER: I actually just got back in May of this year from Iraq.

00:15:18DAHLSTRAND: Okay. When did you leave?

00:15:20HOLDER: I left June, 2016 and returned May, 2017.

00:15:28DAHLSTRAND: Okay so-- The Georgia Guard is still doing year-long.

00:15:31HOLDER: I was nine months to the day in-country, boots on the ground. I had two months of active duty orders leading up to it for MOAB-- and then a month of DMOAB. And then, even before that 12-month clicker started for the Title 10, I had two or three months of Title 32 orders. So-- It was all said and done. I had to withdraw from UGA. And I've been gone from here for about 18 months.

00:15:57DAHLSTRAND: Okay. So this is your first semester back? Okay. Tell me about your deployment.

00:16:03HOLDER: The deployment was mostly uneventful. As a medevac pilot--

00:16:08DAHLSTRAND: What airbase were you based out of?

00:16:10HOLDER: I was at Taji, which is just north of Baghdad. We flew some missions in direct support for some special forces guys out at Al-Asad that we repositioned. We were over there on their compound with them. I was with Al-Asad. I really liked Al-Asad a lot. They were out there on the western edge. Definitely felt like you were more in the fight there. Just being north of Baghdad, basically in the green zone, the Iron Triangle-- I don't know.

00:16:41HOLDER: We got mortared. And we got rocketed-- But it was very infrequent-- very ineffective, which is good. Very good. However, it was just those few times where you really felt like you were in a war. Other times you just felt like you were in a-- a hot base back here in the States. You know-- very sandy. Thought you were out in--

00:17:00DAHLSTRAND: So your schedule-- Like, what was your schedule like? Give me a day in the life.

00:17:05HOLDER: A typical day-- It changed a lot because when we got there, we were only support-- my GSAB, my medevac unit-- We were only supporting Kent Buring, Kuwait, my FOB in Taji, Iraq. We had another group just north in Erbil, Iraq. And that was it. So, we had three locations. And then, we got in-country at the end of July.

00:17:35HOLDER: And by-- On the end of October, we were-- We had to send another detachment out to Syria, really close to Aleppo. And then it wasn't too long after that we were opening up another base in Key West there in Iraq-- kind of in between where Erbil and Taji were. And then it wasn't long after that-- We opened up another base, another FOB in Jordan, Tower 22. And these--

00:18:08DAHLSTRAND: What'd you think about that--? The fact that it seemed to be expanding instead of decreasing.

00:18:14HOLDER: I don't mind that it's expanding because I definitely felt like as medical assets, we needed to be in more places-- because we had troops all over the place. So, we weren't meeting that. There was no way we could meet what they call the golden hour-- which is from notification-- one hour having that troop at the higher echelon of care. It wasn't going to happen because we had an hour in flight from our-- from where we were launching to, to where they were.

00:18:37HOLDER: So, then we had another hour back to the next higher level of care. So you were-- There's no way you're going to meet that. So yes-- I thought that we needed to be more spread out. However, we didn't have the resources. We didn't have the personnel. We didn't have the aircraft. We didn't have the maintainers. We didn't have anything just to support this. And this is just me talking. It seemed like the higher leaders were being told that this needed to happen.

00:19:05HOLDER: And versus saying, "Sir, I'm sorry. We really can't do this. We need more support if we're gonna do this." They just said, "Yes. We'll make it happen." And it really put us in a pinch. So for the majority of the deployment, we ended up pulling 48 hour shifts on duty with 24 hours off. And that's what we called it.

00:19:24HOLDER: However, it turned into more like 56 hours on and 20 hours off or 22 hours off or something like that-- Because you're actually on duty for a full 48. But, like I told you with the army-- You have to come in early to get ready to assume duty. You have to go do your pre-flight. You have to get your aircraft situated. You have to get your gear pulled. You have to do all this kind of stuff. You have to attend a threat briefing.

00:19:52DAHLSTRAND: Let me ask you a question-- just because I went-- I was over there so much earlier. And things have changed. Are pilots prescribed Ambien?

00:20:01HOLDER: No. No. You're not allowed to be on any kind of medication like that. Yeah, sleep is difficult over there at times. So, you know-- Even when you're on duty, we weren't supposed to be taking melatonin. However, there's plenty of nights where-- There were also night shifts. So we were awake all night. We would assume duty at about 5 in the afternoon and be awake until about 8 or 9 in the morning and then go to sleep and sleep all day.

00:20:34HOLDER: Because we weren't-- For anything other than an urgent medevac, we were not allowed to launch during the day. So, any kind of deliberate movement of a troop-- that was sick or something like that-- was going to be done at night under the cover of darkness. So-- We ended up flying just about as much during the day as we did night-- because we would have urgent medevacs where we couldn't wait till darkness to move them.

00:21:06HOLDER: But, I would-- There's plenty of nights where I'd have to-- or days that I would have to take ambient-- not ambient, excuse me-- melatonin to go ahead and put me to sleep.

00:21:13DAHLSTRAND: Okay. And how much did do medevac pilots interact with the medics in the back?

00:21:21HOLDER: A lot. We did what we call it a battle roster. So, typically I would be with the same crew all the time. It would be me-- Our OIC for that location was my pilot in command-- Paul Estrella. He's a captain.

00:21:43HOLDER: And then I was battle roster with Kim Bryan. She was a specialist that got promoted to corporal in-country. And then my medic was Marion Torres. She was from the Florida National Guard. And she was an E5 sergeant. And the four of us-- The majority of the time over there, we were together pretty much 24/7.

00:22:03DAHLSTRAND: Right, okay. So it's not just a "We're on the helicopter together. And then we get off and you do your thing and I'll do mine."

00:22:10HOLDER: Yeah. At work, we were together all the time. Now, when we were almost 20 hours off-- depending on how the shift gone prior or whatever moods we were in-- We may or may not see each other at all until we came back to work. But a lot of times, me and Kim and Marion would end up going to the dining hall together to eat when we were off duty. Or we'd be going to the laundromat to do laundry and just kind of hang out and watch TV together.

00:22:42HOLDER: But when you're on duty, you didn't go to a chow hall. Food was brought to you. They didn't have showers out there. So you didn't shower for those 56 or however long hours you were out there after sweating-- You're very fresh. The girls were actually pretty good. They would go-- And Marion would do-- She bought this thing off of Amazon that actually connected to the faucet and was like a little shower head. And so she would go in there. And she would pretty much just shower without a shower.

00:23:18DAHLSTRAND: That's nice. So, how did you get to UGA?

00:23:26HOLDER: Well, after I completed flight school, I was assigned to 1st of 111-- excuse me, 1st of the 185 in Winder-- which is about a 25, 30 minute drive west of here.

00:23:43HOLDER: Versus returning to Auburn to finish an architecture degree or to pursue a different degree or whatnot. It didn't make sense to me to have to drive four hours to come in.

00:23:55DAHLSTRAND: You went to Auburn specifically for the architecture program?

00:23:59HOLDER: Yes. Yeah, they were-- I can't remember exactly when I went there-- But they were like top 10 in the country at the time. 11, something around there. Very hard program to get into. And so, that's why I was going there. And then, like I said, after doing all the things I'd done, I didn't really think architecture was the direction that I wanted to go in anymore.

00:24:24HOLDER: So, I'm-- Applied to school here at UGA as a transfer student. By all the published stuff, there was no way I was even going to be accepted. My GPA wasn't as high as it needed to be for the hours that I had and all this kind of stuff like that. So, I actually got accepted to University of North Georgia here in Rockinsville. I had accepted there because I had called to the University of Georgia two or three times asking about my application-- because I did early admissions, never heard anything, never heard anything--

00:25:00HOLDER: And so finally I was able-- with the help of Ted-- I was able to get on the phone with the head admissions officer, you know, the head person. And she looked over my file. And she said, "You know, I hate to tell you this, but you probably just need to go ahead and go to University of North Georgia, spend a semester or two there, get your grades up, and then reapply once you are above 60 hours of total credit."

00:25:28HOLDER: And so I had applied to UGA as a landscape architecture major. And I'm not really sure why. But anyway, I ended up getting an acceptance letter. And I came to orientation. And the professors over there-- the department head-- They're very-- They're awesome. When they looked at my history-- They said "Look, your classes don't fit exactly, but we're gonna make it work so that we can get as much of this knocked out for you as we can."

00:25:56DAHLSTRAND: Oh, okay. So that's what you're doing now?

00:26:00HOLDER: No. I finished out my orientation. And then, upon further reflection, decided that-- as much as I love studio and I like architecture-- Architecture and landscape architecture just are not what I end up wanting to do. Because I don't know what I wanna do. But I don't think I wanna do that.

00:26:20HOLDER: So, I applied-- Or I changed my major, rather. And became a business, intended business major. Did all the application for Terry, and got into school as a management major.

00:26:34DAHLSTRAND: Management major, okay. So, you have been in a classroom on both sides of a military experience. Do you notice a difference at all?

00:26:46HOLDER: Yes.

00:26:46DAHLSTRAND: How?

00:26:47HOLDER: As far as officer to enlisted? Or you're talking about military to university?

00:26:56DAHLSTRAND: Military to university.

00:26:57HOLDER: The military is investing in you. They definitely want you to succeed. A lot of the courses that I took at flight school were graduate level. When you print out my joint service transcript, it says, "This is a graduate level class that he took," and all this kind of thing.

00:27:16HOLDER: So, they're difficult. They're not easy. However, like I said, you know-- The military's investing this money in you. It costs-- I've heard figures anywhere from 2.3 to like $5 million is what it costs to make one aviator. So, you know. They're investing $2 million in you. They won't-- They don't want you to get to the end of the line and then flunk out.

00:27:42HOLDER: So they're going to give you the resources you need to be successful. They're going to stay after-- for anyone that's willing-- They're not going to make you do anything-- But for anyone that's willing to invest the time to be successful, they're going to give you all the resources you need. They're not in there to trick you. As where-- especially with the weed out classes in a university-- They're all about tricking you. They're all about-- you know-- chump to stump is what I like to call it.

00:28:10DAHLSTRAND: How's that? What kind of classes do you see?

00:28:15HOLDER: Accounting One at the University of Georgia was definitely one of the hardest classes I've ever taken. Accounting is not inherently a difficult concept. It's adding and subtracting. Every now and then you might multiply and divide-- But it is all about keeping a balance sheet balanced, right?

00:28:31DAHLSTRAND: Right.

00:28:32HOLDER: And reading these-- these forms. So, here's the best way I know how to describe it is-- The professor would teach you-- If x, y, and z equal a, b, and c, this is how you work it. So, you're given the information x, y, and z. And you solve for a, b, and c. Well then, when you show up on the test, you flip the script.

00:28:58HOLDER: And you would think it'd be easy enough. But it's not when you're-- when you're so used to getting information x, y, and z-- But then when you show up on the test you're given a, b, and c. And now you have to solve for x, y, and z. That's hard. And she would intentionally do things to trip you up to make you doubt yourself. And then she told us that she works the problem incorrectly.

00:29:19HOLDER: You know, this is a multiple choice test. So, she'd work the problem incorrectly so that if you didn't-- If you used the wrong formula, or you grabbed the wrong number and plugged it into the wrong spot, that option was gonna be there. And you thought you got it right. And so, I worked my butt off and got a C+ in that class. And then I said, "Well, that's enough of that for me."

00:29:42HOLDER: So, I took Accounting Two at a different school online and got an A-- as easy as--- you know, little effort. And it just goes to show that-- you know-- In my opinion-- that they are trying to weed you out. They're trying to fail you. They're trying to flunk you. And then, another case in point is-- In flight school, I had a weather meteorology class-- I always mess that word up. But, you know, I understand how the weather works. Or I was taught how it works, anyway.

00:30:15DAHLSTRAND: It was very critical to your success as a pilot.

00:30:18HOLDER: Yes. So, that-- And then also as a warrant officer. I have this-- I'm sworn in the same oath as a commission officer-- to uphold the Constitution. So two requirements I have that I had to have for graduation here at UGA is a U.S. and Georgia Constitution Class and some kind of geology class. And one of the choices was a weather and climate. And so I went to advisors. I went to department heads. I went to everyone I could think of and said, "Look, I have met these requirements. I've taken this class. Here it is on my joint service transcript."

00:30:57HOLDER: And they said, "Well, there's no grade for it. So we're gonna need you to take it again." And so, I fought with this and fought with this as much as I could. And finally got someone to tell me off the record that what it boiled down to was the university wanted the money. So, that's another thing that really irks me. And an ironic part of that is that when I was on the deployment, I took a class to satisfy--

00:31:23HOLDER: Well, I took the weather and climate in class here at UGA-- I think my second semester in school-- Didn't study for it, rarely went to class. Got an A because it literally taught and asked me the same questions that I had already done. Then, when I went on deployment, I took an online class-- a political science class to meet my U.S. and Georgia Constitution.

00:31:47HOLDER: However, with UGA being a flat rate school, I was only taking one online class on the deployment. And they were going to charge me some $4,000 for this one class. I was like, "Well, I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to drop it." I told Ted. And he said, "Well, give me a second. Let me see what I can do." He sent an email with me over to financial aid. They somehow had money-- so that-- after my HOPE Scholarship was applied-- Then, I went to school for free that semester. I didn't even pay. I didn't end up paying for the class. They were like, "We need you to pay for it." I got an A in it in a deployed environment.

00:32:25DAHLSTRAND: Yeah. Okay. Do you think, since-- Your first three years were at Auburn. And you had no military experience. And now you're here. Did the military change your perspective on being a student?

00:32:43HOLDER: Absolutely.

00:32:44DAHLSTRAND: How?

00:32:45HOLDER: A couple of things: When I was at Auburn the first time-- fresh out of high school-- I definitely wasn't a self-motivated type person. So, I was more interested in having a good time than going to class and whatever like that. My grades weren't bad. But, they definitely weren't good at Auburn. Flash forward-- Going into the military, I learned self-motivation. I kind of figured out who I am and what I want-- not what other people want from me.

00:33:18HOLDER: And so, when I came back to Georgia some years later, I definitely was a lot better about, "Oh, you know-- I'm going to-- I'm paying for this--" Even though I might not be paying for it fully out of my pocket. Maybe I'm using some HOPE scholarship and getting some loans, you know. I got to pay for this. So I took it more seriously and was able to say, "Yeah, it would be fun to go out." I was invited to go to the bar tonight with these folks. "But I have this reading that I need to do. Or I have a test I need to prepare for." You know, I was better about-- better, not good-- but better about being more studious. And I mean, the proof is in the pudding-- that I went from a 2.73 GPA to-- Now I have a 3.22.

00:34:14DAHLSTRAND: Nice. Okay, what about-- Are you transparent about your military service to your classmates or to your professor?

00:34:24HOLDER: Yeah. Professors absolutely. Because being in the Guard-- and because I'm a warrant officer, I average going in to work for the Guard one or two times a week at least. So, you know-- Most National Guard members-- It will never interfere with their school unless they're getting activated for a national disaster or moved for deployment or something like that-- as were with mine.

00:34:52HOLDER: There's been times where I've gone in to fly. And you are planning to come back to class, but the aircraft breaks. And you have to do an emergency landing in someone's field. And then wait for maintenance to come and bring you a part and replace it. And then you fly back-- or you know, whatever the case may be. We-- There's emergencies that happen. And they prevent you from making it to class later.

00:35:13DAHLSTRAND: Right. So, you have a civilian flying job too? No?

00:35:16HOLDER: This is with the Army.

00:35:18DAHLSTRAND: Okay. Did you go and help with Harvey, Irma, --?

00:35:20HOLDER: No. They tried to activate me for Irma, but I had some tests and stuff. And so I-- As much as I wanted to do that, I told them-- you know-- that if there's any other way, they need to find someone else to to fly for that. I just couldn't afford to miss all the school. Torres, my medic from deployment in the Florida Guard-- She just got back to her house last week. I think it was-- So she spent two or three weeks down there.

00:35:51DAHLSTRAND: So you still keep in contact?

00:35:53HOLDER: Oh, yeah. I talk to her every day.

00:35:56DAHLSTRAND: That's fantastic. What else-- Oh! So tell me-- You said that when you were coming out here, you called Ted. How did you find the Student Veteran Resource Center? How'd you meet Ted?

00:36:09HOLDER: Just online trying to find resources. I knew there's programs and things out there to help. As a guardsman, I still feel like we get the short end of the stick when it comes to financial aid. And I mean, you know-- I've been in the guard for six years. I have three years of action duty service in those six years. So, you know-- As much time away from home as someone else that does a normal contract of three years or four years.

00:36:45HOLDER: However, I don't get 100% GI Bill. I only get 80% because they only give-- They only count that one year that I spent for the deployment that I just got back from. You know, I have plenty of friends that are-- that were active duty. They did one contract, four years. They got out. They have, you know, 80, 90, 100% disability for knees, back, hearing, sleep apnea, all these things. They have a 100% GI bill. So, they're going to school. And they're making $7,000 a month. You know-- And I have just as much service as they do, but a fraction of the benefits.

00:37:31DAHLSTRAND: Drill pay--

00:37:33HOLDER: I'm getting maybe $16,000 a year for working with the guard. And then, I'm getting 80% of my tuition, books, and fees. And that's kind of disheartening. Because we do the same thing.

00:37:48DAHLSTRAND: Right, right.

00:37:50HOLDER: I have to make the same flight minimums as my counterparts in the active duty army. A lot of times, I fly more hours per year than the guys that are active duty.

00:38:00DAHLSTRAND: Okay. So the educational benefits-- Though, from the beginning-- because of the economic situation in 2008-- The educational benefits were key to you joining them. That was your prime motivator?

00:38:19HOLDER: That was my only motivator at the time. I had always said in high school and stuff that I would never join the military.

00:38:26DAHLSTRAND: Why is that?

00:38:27HOLDER: I don't know. I just-- I think I had a sheltered perception that people that join the military are people that don't really have any other opportunities.

00:38:35DAHLSTRAND: Okay.

00:38:36HOLDER: You know, I've heard people say that-- I've seen things online where people are like-- But really, the military is the place where people go that have the most opportunities. They want a wide selection of things. They want a lot of experience. So, after having joined the military-- Not only did I realize that I do really well in a very structured environment-- But this is a group of very smart people that had plenty of opportunities, but chose to serve their country. And so, I definitely got indoctrinated, if you will.

00:39:08DAHLSTRAND: Well, let's talk about that. What are some stereotypes that you encounter-- about servicemen, servicewomen-- that you would like to dispel for the record?

00:39:22HOLDER: That one being key-- is that uneducated people join the military because they can't get a job anywhere else-- or they can't go to school or whatever. But, you know-- That is probably the biggest myth to dispel. Because, I mean-- Yeah, there are some jobs in the military where you don't have to be very smart to perform them. But for the most part, you have to be at the top of your game to have the job that you have.

00:39:48DAHLSTRAND: Right, right. Do you encounter any kind of any of those stereotypes here on campus?

00:39:56HOLDER: I haven't, actually. I know a lot of people look at me strangely when I'm in a-- you know-- freshman or sophomore level class and it comes up, "How old are you?" And I'm 29 years old and they're 18, 19, maybe 20 years old. So, I think some people think that's kind of strange that I'm in a traditional school as a non-traditional student. But, I think it's worth it.

00:40:31DAHLSTRAND: How often-- Do you visit the Student Veteran Resource Center on a regular basis?

00:40:38HOLDER: I normally go. I didn't the first time that I was here just because-- I don't know-- I didn't really have a reason-- just lazy I guess. But, I've made it a point this semester to go to as many of the functions that the SVRC has-- and then the SVA meetings and stuff like that. I want to be more involved for sure.

00:41:00HOLDER: And, I guess part of the reason was-- Beforehand, I lived with my brother. My brother was a baseball player here at UGA. And I lived with him and some other guys. So, you know-- That's how I got to know people was through him and his friends. And now that he's gone, I'm here. And I don't really know anyone. I'm not really sure how to go about meeting other people. Especially people of a like-minded persuasion.

00:41:27DAHLSTRAND: Right. So you find mutual interests inside the Student Veteran Resource Center?

00:41:34HOLDER: Yes.

00:41:35DAHLSTRAND: Yeah. Do you feel like it's one of the only places on campus where do you feel most comfortable there? Or--?

00:41:45HOLDER: No. I don't guess I feel the most comfortable there. I don't really feel the most comfortable anywhere-- okay other than maybe-- I have one desk that I really like in the Miller Learning Center that I spend all my time at. And I get really upset when someone gets there before I do.

00:42:02DAHLSTRAND: Okay. So then, what's your next steps? What are you planning? Like first projected graduation date? And what are you going to do with a management degree?

00:42:16HOLDER: Yeah, who knows? I was hoping to be graduated by June '18. But I met with my advisor yesterday. And unfortunately, looks like I get to spend another fall semester here. It just doesn't look like they're going to offer the classes this summer that I need to finish. I've got 24 hours remaining. And, they only offer four of those this summer. So, I'm going to have to wait until next fall. But anyway, yeah. I don't know what I want to do. I may try to fly for the airlines. I may try to go for a corporate job. I may try to go active duty. Or technician-- which is the active duty for the guard side here-- federal technician. So, who knows.

00:43:04DAHLSTRAND: Still figuring it out. There's time. It's fine. Is there anything I didn't ask that you would like to talk about specifically?

00:43:13HOLDER: No. I don't think so.

00:43:15DAHLSTRAND: Okay. Final question then: For the historian reviewing this tape 100 years from now, do you have any final thoughts that you can offer about the lessons you learned during your military experience?

00:43:35HOLDER: I don't know if it's so much the lessons that I've learned. As far as-- I think it's an experience that everyone should have. I think part of the beauty of the U.S. Armed Forces is that it is an all-volunteer service. So, I'm not saying that I think that we should make it mandated that everyone have two or three years of service to their country or whatever.

00:43:59HOLDER: But, I definitely think it should be an option that everyone seriously explores. You get to meet people that you would never meet any other way. You get to see things and go places-- you know-- as cliche as it sounds. But, I'm forever grateful. I always considered myself a patriot, but it wasn't until I really started serving that I understood what it actually meant to serve. To have those freedoms and to have those abilities to be an American. So, yeah.

00:44:29DAHLSTRAND: Alright. Well, thank you for spending some time with me today.

00:44:32HOLDER: Absolutely. Thank you.

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