Interview with Guyton Lee Robinson, August 4, 2017

00:00:00KATE DAHLSTRAND: Today is Friday. August 4th, 2017. If you could, please state your full name, the branch of service in which you served, and the years during your service.

00:00:11GUYTON LEE ROBINSON: Hi, I'm Guyton Lee Robinson and I was commissioned in May of 2000, so May 27th, 2000, and I've been serving since then.

00:00:19DAHLSTRAND: Okay. What service?

00:00:21ROBINSON: In the Army.

00:00:22DAHLSTRAND: In the Army. Okay, so first off, big easy question, why'd you join the military?

00:00:27ROBINSON: Okay. Um, so this traces back to when I was in high school. So, my grandfather was in the Navy, he did serve overseas, but my father was in the Army and he was going to be a Vietnam draftee. So, he had already completed college, so he went through officer candidate school, and then just did his pitch in Vietnam, and then he got out after he came back. And he was a Signal Corps officer, and I could just always tell growing up that the military shaped him as a person, his character, and his outlook on things in a very positive way. So it's something I was kind of interested in. So when I was, I think, about in the 10th grade, he gave me a book to read called The Long Red Line by Rick Atkinson about the West Point class of '66, so the first full class went to Vietnam, and that kind of had me hooked on West Point. So then I applied, I visited, I got in, so then off I went, right? So that's kind of what attracted me into the service, was really his example in that book.

00:01:26DAHLSTRAND: Where did you grow up? Were you like an Army brat?

00:01:28ROBINSON: No, not at all. So I grew up in Thomasville, Georgia, lived in two houses between the time I was born and the time I left for West Point, and this is actually the first time I've been back in Georgia since I left, in 1996.

00:01:41DAHLSTRAND: Was the military a popular option in your hometown, or were you kind of distinct and running off?

00:01:48ROBINSON: Yeah, there's a small cadre of West Point grads, I guess, from Thomasville. So there was a guy that was-- a senior at West Point when I was a freshman, so I talked to him a little bit. Let's see, there's a guy that was a Korean War veteran that's a West Point graduate, and there's a guy named Bill Rayford. Lloyd Austin, who just, you know, was a CENTCOM commander, was a West Point graduate, graduated from my high school as well. So, there's kind of a sprinkling of people that went to West Point, but, you know, out of my high school class, I think I went to West Point, and yeah. I think I graduated with about 180, and then I think one guy went in the Marine Corps and that was about it. So, no, not like a big, you know, Army connection there or anything.

00:02:30DAHLSTRAND: With your family's connection to the military, were they supportive?

00:02:34ROBINSON: Oh yeah, definitely so, and I mean the whole town was too. I mean, it was definitely very, you know, I think it was something I was proud to go do, and I think it was something that people respected that decision. And of course, this was pre-9/11 as well, so, you know, it was a different time, it was different expectations for me too, in terms of what my service would look like, so.

00:02:54DAHLSTRAND: What is your-- role in the military? What do you do?

00:02:58ROBINSON: So, I'm an aviation officer. Yep. So, it's funny, my physical to get into West Point, I went to Moody Air Force Base in Valdosta to go get it, and everything was going fine, but I failed the death perception test. I'll never forget the doctor said, you know, "Were you planning on being a pilot?" And I said, "Well, I didn't want to necessarily rule it out." And he said, "Well, I'm sorry, but that's not going to work out for you." So, I kind of had that in the back of my mind that, you know, okay, well, I'll-- I'll be an armor officer because I was interested in maneuver. So, but my third year in, they send you to do training with, you know, for a couple weeks with another unit, active unit, and I went to Apache Battalion in Korea, and I said, this is awesome, I want to do this. So, you know, I'm going to give it another shot, so it was a different depth perception test they gave me in the aviation physical there, and I passed it.

00:03:48DAHLSTRAND: So, you're an Apache pilot?

00:03:49ROBINSON: Uh-huh. Yep.

00:03:51DAHLSTRAND: How did-- being a pilot meet your expectations? Is it what you thought it would be?

00:03:58ROBINSON: Yeah, it is. So the thing that I guess attracted me to armor as well, and the thing I love about aviation, is that the units are really small. You know, so my platoon, when I was a platoon leader, both in Korea and at Fort Campbell, you know, I had about, what, six or eight pilots, about six or eight crew chiefs, and a platoon sergeant. So it's a really small-knit group that you get to know pretty well. And so when I was a company commander, same thing, I probably had in my company about 38, which is the size of an infantry platoon. You know, so you just get to know people, I think, on a much more personal level. And of course, when you're flying with somebody as well, when you're flying for six or eight hours, that's a lot of, you know, that's a lot of air time to fill, you know, in a cockpit. So you just really get to know your people very well. And I think, again, you know, not having any expectations of going, you know, to a conflict, when I graduated at West Point, the thing I've appreciated now about my branch choice, and I'm glad that I chose aviation, is just, you just get to see the whole battlefield. You know, as an Apache pilot. So, you know, one of the things I remember saying in my change of command speech when I left in Iraq was that, you know, when we thought about, over those 15 months, the big battles in Baghdad, we were at every single one. Somebody from my company was at every single one, not just somebody from our battalion, but from my company. You know, that was just a really, you know, feeling of pride. And, you know, when you would see people in the mess hall, or you'd see people, you know, just wherever around base, and they understand you're an aviator, I mean, they just, people always want you there. You know, you're always wanted. So that's what I really enjoyed about, you know, being in Baghdad.

00:05:36DAHLSTRAND: Okay, so you've brought up some time in Iraq. Tell me some dates of your deployment. How many times have you deployed? Three.

00:05:43ROBINSON: Three.

00:05:43DAHLSTRAND: Three. Three? And where? Was it Iraq every time?

00:05:46ROBINSON: No, Afghanistan for the last one. So kind of a funny story. My original choice out of flight school, I wanted to go to Germany really bad. So I'll try to make this quick, but it is a funny story. So, you know, it's all about class rank. And when we chose post, I was number one and I'm like, Germany, here I come. Right? So, uh, Long story short, the guy comes in, the captain comes in one day when we were doing some exercise and he said, "Hey, I've got your post choices now." So, you know, he went through the Blackhawks and the Kiowas and the Chinooks. And he said, "Apache guys, you're all going to Korea." And we're like, Oh, you're so funny. He's like, "No, I'm serious." You know, Robinson, Korea, Shannon, Korea, so on and so forth. Right. So I kind of stewed about that for a couple of days, and I'm like, "You know, you never know until you go asked." So I went to his office one day after class, and I said, "Look, I don't mean to be a pain here, but, you know, I really want to go to Germany, and is there any way—is there anything we can do, you know?" And he said, "Look, I'll tell you what. Come back tomorrow. We'll call the assignment officer in the Pentagon." He's like, "I'm pretty sure we'll get you—I can get you Germany." So I was on cloud nine. Well, that was September the 10th of 2001. So the next day, nobody was calling the Pentagon. So I took that as, "Hey, that's Korea. Here I've come, right?" And it actually ended up being great because I went with a lot of my West Point and flight school classmates there. And we had a great commander, a guy named Jerry Egbert, and it was a good environment for me to grow up as a lieutenant. So all that's to say, I left Korea. I was sitting in the Outback Steakhouse in Korea, getting ready to leave Seoul to come back to the States when the invasion started. So that was in 2003, March of 2003. I left March 25th. So I was an Alpha model Apache pilot in Korea. So I had to transition to the Delta model. So I did that course. So then that put me finishing the Delta model course about June of 2003. And that was, of course, when nobody knew what was going on in Iraq. I mean, see, there was talk that I wouldn't even deploy. You know, because we were all coming home. Like, why would you, why would we send you there? You know. So, kind of kicking around at Fort Campbell until right after July 4th weekend, and then I finally deployed. And I think maybe about a month after I got there, they're like, "Okay, yes, we're, this battalion is staying for a year." So I ended up, I can't remember the exact date of my deployment, but it was sometime in mid-July of 2003 that I joined the 101st Airborne. So I was in the 2nd Battalion of the 101st Airborne, which that battalion doesn't exist anymore. But we were up, when I joined the unit, they'd already pushed through the initial invasion, of course. And they were operating out of an airbase called Qayyarah West, which is near Tal Afar, northern Iraq. So most of our missions there were Mosul, Tal Afar, and out west all the way to the Syrian border. So I stayed there until February. So it was, again, about seven months for that deployment. And then came back, and then a couple years later, did the captain's career course, went to Fort Hood. And then I deployed with the 1-227th during the time that ended up being the surge. So I got there, that deployment. I guess it was August of 2006. And then yeah, I left in November of 2007. And then my latest deployment was to Afghanistan. And that was in August of 2013. Until I guess it was May of 2014.

00:08:59DAHLSTRAND: Wow. Um, so give me like a typical day in the life while you were overseas.

00:09:08ROBINSON: Yeah, I guess I was really fortunate because each of the deployments I was in a very good job. You know, I wasn't like stuck in not those are bad jobs I wasn't like stuck in a TOC, you know looking at plywood walls all day long. So my first deployment I was a platoon leader. You know, so it was again we were kind of figuring everything out during that time but you know it was-- Much different than the later tours, I guess because we were on the road a lot more, you know, so that was before, like, the, you know, restrictions started in terms of convoys and things like that. So with my platoon, you know, we would, um, some, some, some parts of the company would do missions out of QR West in and around that area. And then usually we would have a platoon rotate up to Tal Afar. I think we maybe stay like a week at a time or so and just operate out of there. Um, I think we did that for most of the deployment. You know, so we would like put our own vehicles on the road and we drive up there. And so we'd secure them as, as the, as the, um, the aircraft would secure our own vehicles and stuff going up there. And then we do missions out of there. Um, but I tell you, we thought we were flying a lot then, and we weren't like, we weren't even flying close. I bet we weren't flying a third of the op tempo that we did in later deployments, you know, but it was just, again, a matter of perspective and, you know, getting all these things figured out. But of course, we didn't have like nearly an infrastructure then either that we built up. So, you know later on so but yeah a typical day then I mean as a platoon leader what you're trying to do is you make sure that you're kind of being the interface between the company commander who has plans planning all the missions and then the maintenance to make sure that maintenance will support you know what the what the mission plans are but really you don't know what you're doing as a platoon leader. I mean you honestly don't. Like you're learning how to be a company commander and you don't really know that at the time because you think you're a leader and you I mean you kind of are because you know you're trying to make sure that you're giving the motivation and you're giving the resources to the guys to make the mission happen. But you're just looking back you're really in the learning mode I mean you're learning what it takes to maintain those helicopters you're learning how to fly them you know because when you show up to the unit you're the worst pilot in the company because you're brand new. You know? So you know, you just yeah you're constantly behind the eight ball. So I guess in a sense I think it's one of the harder jobs in the army but at the same time everybody you know, this may come across wrong but everybody kind of has low expectations of you because you're brand new, you know, so you kind of have to learn it.

00:11:33DAHLSTRAND: Its that, "you can't spell lost without LT."

00:11:35ROBINSON: That's exactly right. Exactly right. Yeah, I mean, my wife and I were laughing about that. We were traveling a few weeks ago, we have travel space available to Europe and there's a lieutenant, a brand new West Point lieutenant in the airport with us. And we were getting ready to leave and we were approaching the customs line and he said I'd packed my passport and my, you know, check baggage. And I looked at my wife Heather and I was like, "This is why lieutenants have, you know", I was like, "Yes, I did things like that too," you know, I mean, so exactly right.

00:12:03DAHLSTRAND: So was it your second deployment that you went as a company commander? Uh-huh

00:12:07ROBINSON: Uh-huh

00:12:07DAHLSTRAND: Uh-huh Okay. What was, how was that different?

00:12:09ROBINSON: Yeah. So the second deployment I went, I originally deployed as the headquarters company commander. So an aviation battalion, that means you own all the S-shops. So the S-1, S-4, you know, you obviously own all the S-3 soldiers. So a lot of what I was doing. I was just making sure that the headquarters footprint was all set up. I mean, a lot of my job, honestly, too, was property management. I learned from a brigade commander later on that I really respected, a guy named Miles Brown. He said that Majors run the Army and Captains sign for the Army. And I think that was a pretty wise statement because, you know, a lot of what I was doing was property accountability. You know, and just obviously--

00:12:44DAHLSTRAND: Did you get a lot of flight time as a company?

00:12:45ROBINSON: I did. And that's the thing is like, you know, back to the conversation we were having about optempo. So, um, when I deployed the first time, you know, I think I might've flown, might've flown during that entire seven months, I don't know, maybe 30, 40 hours a month. I was flying 90 hours a month, you know, 90 to a hundred as a company commander, even as the headquarters company commander. So I went over, you know, hadn't flown that much at Fort Hood because when you're not in the line companies, I mean, you don't, you just don't fly that much, you know, but of course, when you get overseas, they need everybody because the mission load is so heavy. So. There's a thing in aviation called pilot in command. So usually when you get around five or 600 hours, it's basically the person that's in charge of the aircraft, right? So the person that's on the blame line, if anything goes wrong, that's responsible for making the decisions about the employment of the aircraft, all that kind of stuff. So I deployed not as a pilot in command, but after about the first week, I kind of flew with my senior instructor pilot, a guy named Bill Hamm. And he's like, "yep, you're good to go." So here I am, you know, in Iraq and it's like a brand new pilot in command flying in Baghdad and just kind of getting it figured out. So. People say it's like a license to be dangerous and you do. I mean, you kind of then when it's all on you, you grew up pretty quick, you know? Because you're responsible for everything that that's happening with that aircraft. So I flew a whole lot and I remember some conversations I had with my first sergeant, a guy named Pedro Leon. After it became clear that I was almost going to be like a line pilot, you know, as a headquarters commander, because I was flying about five or six days a week. I just looked at him, I'm like, I need you to run the company. You know, I'm like, I. They need me, you know, and you know, this, this is what I want to do. And I have complete confidence in you that everything's gonna be fine. So I did that for about what the first, maybe four or five months of the deployment. And I came back and I took command on like the 20th of January. So then, of 2007, so, you know, during that time, you know, as a line company commander, I mean, basically just, you know, same responsibilities, but now you get to-- smaller company, you get to manage the mission more, you know, so then it kind of transitioned from just me almost being like kind of a line pilot to being the person that's okay, let's may understand this fight, and how can we best support it, you know, make those recommendations to the S3 and, and things like that. So, but yeah, still flying about the same op tempo. And then my last deployment Afghanistan. I was an executive officer for an attack battalion. So I guess a difference too in Iraq and Afghanistan. In Iraq, because we had so many forces there, we stayed in pure organization. So we stayed as a pure attack battalion. So it was, you know, only Apaches in our unit. Well, for Afghanistan, everybody flip-flops because the terrain is so dispersed, the missions are so dispersed. So I was in southern Afghanistan and we started a base called Tirin Kut. So we had a task force that was composed of, originally it was just Apaches. We had some Texas Guard guys with us that were Apaches as well. And then we had some Blackhawks and some Medevac underneath us. So we were, you know, our original battalion was 1-1, which was an attack battalion, but we became task force gunfighters. We got all these elements. So we were in Tirin Kut about three months. And then with some of the force reductions, there was a cavalry squadron from the 1-6th Cav from our brigade that was down in Kandahar, but they had 58s, and that was also part of the time of their divesting 58s from the inventory and getting them out of Afghanistan. So the decision was made to go ahead and send those guys home. So then we closed Tirin Kut down and turned that base over to the Afghans. And then we came down to Kandahar and operated from there. So XO is a really fun job because, you know, you're the battalion commanders, you know, right-hand person. And you, every day is different, which is cool. I like jobs like that. You know, so it's, it's cool because you get to do different things every day, but it's also sometimes not cool because literally anything can be your responsibility. You know, except for like, you know, anything that's happening, obviously with operational decisions, that's the S3, S3's lane, but, you know, maintenance. I mean, supply, you have oversight of the whole staff. So, but it was fun. I had a great group of people and we had a great, we had a great commander and just a really positive environment to work in. So it was fun.

00:17:19DAHLSTRAND: That's always a good thing.

00:17:20ROBINSON: Yeah, yeah.

00:17:21DAHLSTRAND: Deploying with a positive.

00:17:22ROBINSON: Yes, yes, yeah.

00:17:24DAHLSTRAND: So, there are a lot of public misperceptions about the military. Is there one specific misperception that you hear that you would like to explain to future generations?

00:17:40ROBINSON: Misperceptions about the army. Give me a minute and think about this. That's a good question so it deserves a thoughtful answer not to think about for a second-- You know, I think maybe, and this is, I think, kind of a, this goes back a long time, right? Is the misperception about resources and, you know, the potential to squander resources and things like that. I mean, certainly in my experience, nobody was trying to kingdom build, you know? Like, we would buy the things that we needed. And of course, we always operated on budgets. I mean, just like anybody else would. But, you know, Apaches are incredibly expensive. You know, I think the per flight hour cost now are well into like the 3 or $4,000 per flight hour. You know, so it's expensive. But, you know, we tried to, you know, use simulation devices, you know, things like that to do the training where we could. So I never really felt like, there was, you know, a conscious effort, I guess, to be wasteful. You know, with our resources and with our spending. But we certainly spent a lot, because it took a lot to do that mission, you know. But yeah, I guess that's the one thing that comes to mind.

00:19:02DAHLSTRAND: Okay. How'd you get to UGA?

00:19:04ROBINSON: Funny story. So after my company command in the 227th and at Fort Hood, while I was actually deployed, I applied to go back and teach at West Point, to go back to American Politics faculty. That was my major there and I really enjoyed it and, you know, I thought that was something if I stayed in I'd want to do. So I applied and I was accepted, but then I think right around the same time I got accepted is when the surge was announced. So that, you know, we were going to be staying for longer than we anticipated, so I was a little bit worried about how that would affect some of my timeline and things like that, but West Point, you know, was fine with it. So they just said, "Hey, come six months late", which ended up actually being really nice. Because you, you kind of come in as a one person and you don't get roped up into like all the new instructor training. And so you kind of get like the short course of that. And you know, which is a little, a little crazy at first, but in hindsight it worked out cause it gave me some, an extra summer basically to have some flexibility to do some other things at West Point. So, so I did my teaching gig there. So I got a master's from Cornell and then I did the three years teaching there. And some people there would try to take their master's work and turn it into a PhD while they're teaching but it's tough. As you know, being a full-time PhD student is you know, it's a lot.

00:20:26DAHLSTRAND: It's not a side gig.

01:20:24ROBINSON: Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. So I saw people, you know, that were doing it and that's when we were starting our family. And I was like, this is not for me, you know? So I had some thoughts about trying to pursue a PhD at that point from Cornell because they were, Cornell was very supportive of it in terms of you doing it away from campus. But it just, you know, it just became clear that that wasn't, you know, that that wasn't going to mesh with my goals in terms of my family life and things like that at that point. So, um, I kind of just put that to rest as, okay, well that was a possibility, but now it didn't happen. And so I guess about a year after I left West Point, I heard about this program called Advanced Strategic Planning and Policy Program, which is great. ASP3 is what the acronym is for that. So it sounds like a mouthful. But I guess like the short of the program as it started, I guess maybe seven or eight years ago, I can't remember what year the first cohort was, but it originally started with only four or five officers. And most of those folks were plans and policy officers. So they were like a specialty of that. And so it was designed, I guess, that the chief of staff, it was General Odierno, who's watched this program, originated under. I think he felt that he wanted to have some army officers with analytical capabilities of PhD students that he could call upon, you know, when he needed projects done or like that the army could look at later on and put in positions where those skills would help them. So the program expanded to where they accepted people like me who still wanted to be in the operational army. So it really just really worked out very well for my timing just like anything in the military it's all about your timing when you can fit it in. So I kind of had this wrinkle in time where I just finished all my what they call key development time so XO and S3 time at Fort Riley and had some time before battalion command so the options were either you go do like a joint job so you go work with the Air Force somewhere or the Navy or, another service or, you you know go do any number of jobs or, you do something like this. So I'm like hey two to three years and get a PhD done sign me up you know? So I applied for it and I got it and it's a great program because they just the guidance is go pursue a PhD in a strategy related field. So some people do it in history you know quite a few do it in history some political science folks. But my interest is really in public management so that's why I'm here.

01:22:53DAHLSTRAND: Are you the only active duty person in your cohort right now?

01:22:57ROBINSON: I am. I am so there's quite a few people about three or four that I've met that are veterans that have finished their time and now they're in the MPA program. But yeah, in terms of the PhD program I'm the only person. There was a guy named Dan Gade that was here about five years ago or so probably longer than that I guess because he taught with me at West Point and he got his PhD here. So I knew like that the Georgia program was supportive of Army officers and and the timeline we have to keep you know to get it done because I'm on a three-year timeline to get this done which is pretty unusual you know for PhDs so. But yeah I did the campus visit and they were supportive of it and the program was exactly what I wanted so that's why I'm in Athens. I got promoted to lieutenant colonel back in January you and it was funny I got promoted at the arch you know that was one of the stories I told it was like if you would have told me when I was a lieutenant then I would be get promoted to lieutenant colonel under the arch in Athens Georgia I would have told you you were a fool. You know but it just all kind of has worked out that way.

01:23:52DAHLSTRAND: So what's it been like, you went from being an instructor at West Point and a commander to being on a huge SEC campus, what's it like to be a student?

01:24:05ROBINSON: Yeah, yeah. Well you know I think kind of like I was telling you my last job as an XO, I mean you know most commanders aren't going to like sit down and tell you okay, "this is what I need you to do for me today." I mean you know so you have to understand what needs to be done and then go do it so I think that like I kind of had that I don't know you just learn a lot of motivation I guess. And in the army that you know you don't need somebody to set your schedule for you you can just go and figure it out, which I think is a key skill in a PhD program because you know it's nobody's going to hold your hand. And you know I mean you have courses that you take but after that ,you know, you get done when you can get the work done.

01:24:40DAHLSTRAND: Are you doing any like TAing? Are you teaching here at all?

01:24:47ROBINSON: No I'm not. So I did when I was at Cornell but just because of the timeline I have to make here I'm not doing any TA work.

01:24:53DAHLSTRAND: And so you're done with coursework too?

01:24:55ROBINSON: One more year. So I just finished my first year so I have one more year of coursework and then it'll be the comps and then so I got selected for battalion command. So I know that'll be my next job out of here. So next summer I'll go to pre-command course and do that, put on a uniform again and go do all those things and then have that last year to finish up, you know, do a dissertation prospectus, get it done, defend and then hopefully be done when I leave.

01:25:22DAHLSTRAND: What's the dynamic like in your seminar classrooms? Are you fairly open about your military studies?

01:25:30ROBINSON: Yeah, I try to be. And, you know, one of the courses I took my first semester was public leadership, you know, which if there's something the Army should be good at is producing leaders, you know. So it was interesting to listen to the conversations that were going on in the classroom. But also just, you know, take a look at what the scholarship says about leadership. I mean, there's certainly a lot of things that I took from that class that I'll try to reintroduce, you know to learn about leadership, but it was fun to be able to share some different, you know, aspects of what I'd learned in leadership, you know. Both watching and doing over the past few years.

01:26:03DAHLSTRAND: So, you're set to get your PhD two years from now and then uh, you'll go back into command, so clearly you are a like career man.

01:26:14ROBINSON: Yes. Yep.

01:26:15DAHLSTRAND: I, uh-- What happens after? Are you going to do more than 20? Is this like a lifelong commitment?

01:26:22ROBINSON: Yeah. Cause I mean, I'm already at, um, 17 now. Right. So, um, so this obviously they're not going to send me to, um, a PhD program and then let me retire, you know. So it's, uh, it's two for one while I'm here. So all those six years when I leave, um, so that'll put me through what about 24, 25 years in service. Um, you know, so by that time I'll be competing for brigade command. So if battalion command goes well, then maybe that works out. And if it doesn't, then, you know, hopefully I'll find some interesting work to do. But yeah, that's kind of what the next--

01:26:53DAHLSTRAND: Do you ever think about, like, post-service?

01:26:56ROBINSON: I do. Yeah, that's one of the things that attracted me to the PhD program, too, is that, you know, I wanted to have that credential and that skill set to take into the civilian world. I really enjoyed, at West Point, teaching, curriculum development. I enjoy being on the campus, and I really feel that, you know, just with some of the-- public policy programs and problems we were looking at at West Point. One of the neat things about American Politics program there, it was a very-- our boss was great, and he was very-- he powered a lot of decisions down to us. We had a lot of flexibility to tinker with a program of instruction. So at the end of the course, you know, we would assign about three lessons or so, so about three class periods to-- any public policy program that we wanted to do. So a lot of people obviously did defense-related things. So I remember one semester, I think I did cyber security with my colleagues. Then I thought it'd be interesting to look at education, because there was a lot at the time, and still is, right, about the quality of the public education system in America and some of the contributors to that. So I was like, "Well, look, the cadets are just-- are out of high school. At least they have some, you know, familiarity with that and it may be interesting to them." So I thought, "Hey, let's try this and see how it works out." So I did that. About two or three semesters in a row, we had some guest speakers from the Harlem Children's Zone come down and speak and a couple of other similar programs, and I just became really fascinated by that public policy area. So that's one of the reasons I wanted to come pursue the Ph.D., is I want to be able to enter that field with a credential, I think, that can open some doors for me that, if I did not have a Ph.D., might otherwise be closed.

01:28:39DAHLSTRAND: Right. Do you think that there are any challenges as far as being like a non-traditional student on this campus?

01:28:49ROBINSON: I think maybe one of them is that people don't know how to take you. You know, I mean, it's not unusual, I guess, for there to be older PhD students, but I'm on the, probably the old side of old, right? Because I'm 39 now. So, you know, when you're in a classroom with people that are in the mid-twenties, I mean, there's a generation gap there that, you know, that I try to respect, not that I'm, wiser or whatever than them, because they certainly know a lot of things and have a lot of different experiences than I did at that age. But I guess perspective taking is kind of hard sometimes, you know?

01:29:20DAHLSTRAND: Right, yeah. Um, so before I hit record, you told me that there was something specific you'd like to talk about.

01:29:30ROBINSON: Yeah. I think one of the, um, one of the things that led me to sit down with you today is I think there's a lot of stories to be told, um, that I think need to be told. Um, and so one of, one of my worst days, but of course, like one of the days that I'll remember just because of the people that were involved, um, was it, it was, I guess it was my fifth day of command. So I took command on January the 28th. And, um, there was a, an officer, a warrant officer in my company that was just, probably the best leader I've ever seen in the army. And warrant officers don't always, always have that, um, uh, reputation, right, of being leaders. I mean, because they're technical experts, that's what, that's the job description, right? So this guy named Keith Yoakum was a, um, uh, maintenance test pilot and Keith had had an interesting story. So he had taught at Fort Rucker for a long time, you know, probably the, the smartest person in our battalion in terms of aviation maintenance and knowing, knowing the maintenance about the Apache. So he was selected to go fly for the Golden Knights Army Parachute Team, but he'd never deployed before. And I think he, I think that weighed on him and he felt he had an obligation to share that expertise that he had. So he, you know, he had just served in Korea. So he'd been in Korea for a year and then he didn't even move his family to Fort Hood. They stayed at Enterprise, Alabama. And he, I think he had like a travel trailer or something that he pulled out there for a little while before he left and then he deployed. So I didn't really know him well, personally, because I flew with Charlie Company when I was a headquarters commander, and I ended up taking command at Alpha Company, but I knew him by reputation. And he was a guy that like, he could just motivate people to do things that you wouldn't, I would never even think to do things like this. I'll give you a perfect example. So in combat, Keith thought it was super important that the cockpits be clean. I'm not talking about like, you know, that we get the bulky dust out. I mean, they were shined to perfection. Like you would see it on the floor at Boeing. You know, and he didn't order people to do that. He led by example. I mean, you would see him on 130 degree day, you know, elbows deep and the cockpit cleaning up. And then, so the crew chiefs responded to that big time, you know? Um, and he was just a great person. So on February the 1st, there was a guy that our company that was having some problems flying and this, that, and the other, just hadn't progressed the way we wanted to. So I sat down with Keith and a guy named Frank Almarez, who was my senior instructor pilot, and we just had a conversation with this guy. I mean, and Keith was just, you know, he was just a leader that you hope to have in your organization, you know, so I was just super excited about working with him. He just, work ethic unlike any other. So then, February, the morning of February 2nd, typically what we would do to start a mission is we would go to a test fire range. So we would go test fire a 30 millimeter and it gave you a chance to what's called harmonize a gun and make sure it's, you know, shooting as accurately as possible. So that previous month in Baghdad had been really rough. We lost a Blackhawk on the east side of Baghdad to a shoot down. There was a CH-46, a Navy helicopter that was shot down in southern Baghdad. We had lost an Apache from a sister battalion. So it was very clear that they were targeting aircraft and they were getting very good at it. So what they were doing--

01:32:54DAHLSTRAND: What year was this again?

01:32:55ROBINSON: This was in 2007. This is February, January-February of 2007.

01:33:00DAHLSTRAND: Okay.

01:33:01ROBINSON: Yeah. Bringing up memories. Yeah. So, um, you know, they were, they were basically setting these triangle shape ambushes where they would put heavy machine guns at three corners. We, they'd wait for two aircraft to fly through and then they would engage the trail aircraft, you know? So anyway, so Keith and Jason got out that morning-- Um, to go fly. So Jason, -- was, was Jason was, uh, Keith's co-pilot that day. And so Jason was set to go home in about two weeks, um, uh, for the birth. I think it was going to be his fourth kid. He's going to have a little boy. Um, and Jason was like one of our younger pilots and it was somebody that Keith had kind of taken his, um, you know, perspective that he wanted to mentor him. And like, we wanted Jason to grow and develop as well. So, um, we thought it'd be a good idea that those, those guys will fly together. So they went off for a mission and, uh, they were number two. They were the number two aircraft. Well, sure enough, they ran into one of those triangle shape ambushes. And so Keith's aircraft, um, was the only one that was targeted at first. And, um, so he, he got hit in several places around the tail boom. Um, and he lost his utility hydraulics. So, um, the short answer is when you lose that, our, our flight manual tells us we should land as soon as possible, which means that you find the nearest safe landing area and you put the aircraft down, well, I mean, Keith-- When you truly know the system, you may have six minutes, you may have 60 minutes. You really don't know how much you have when you lose your utility hydraulics. So he felt like he had some time. But what it does when you lose your utility hydraulics, you lose the ability to shoot your gun and you can only shoot your rockets by diving. So our rockets articulate usually through hydraulics, but when you usually lose your utility hydraulics, you know, you have to climb. uh, and dive, you know, just like the old Cobras would. So, um, Keith talked to the, um, air mission commander, a guy named, um, Jeremy Griffin that day. And then there was another guy named Jared Weaver, who's a lieutenant in the company that was in the other aircraft, and they decided they were going to go find these guys, you know, and kill them. So they decided on their pattern that they would use to go find them. And as they were getting set up to go find them, Keith was climbing, obviously to be able to shoot and cover his lead aircraft. Well, he didn't know that there was a fire had started in his tail boom, and we don't really know what happened to start it, but something started a fire. And we have fire detection systems, but not in that part of the aircraft. So basically the aircraft split in half and, you know, they were killed instantly, right? So I was flying nights at that time, so I'd probably fallen asleep at, you know, two in the morning or whatever. And this shoot down probably happened around six or so, it was early in the morning. So one of the other company commanders came and knocked on my door, and he-- told me what happened, and, you know, you're just shell-shocked, you know. So I remember going into the bathroom, because I knew it was gonna be a long day, and I was like, "Let me just-- I'm gonna take a minute right now to shave and wake up before I walk to that talk," you know. So I remember going in there and, like, people look at me like, "What are you doing here?" You know, and I didn't want to say anything because, you know, I mean, it just wasn't the time. So, went down there to the operations center, and it was clear what had happened. I mean, you know, the aircraft was totally burned. I mean, they recovered their bodies, but, you know, like I said, they were killed instantly. And, you know, as we went through the process, you know, we have flight data recorders just like a big airline would, you know, a big airliner would. So we have the voice transmissions of the day. We know exactly what was happening in our cockpit, all the things that they saw. And it was just pretty clear to me that, like, that was an uncommon level of valor that I saw, even like, even though they didn't-- Find the, find the guys and kill them, you know? So like, I felt like it was, you know, I would not have made that decision, you know, I've replayed that scene in my head, I mean, you know, hundreds of times. And, you know, in the vast majority, I'd bring those aircraft home, you know? Um, but he made the other decision, I think, for reasons that he, he didn't want to see what had happened to that Black Hawk because he responded to that shoot down, he was one of the aircraft that responded to it, he didn't want to see that happen again, you know? So, um-- You know, I knew I wanted to put him up for a significant Valor Award, and I kind of felt like the Medal of Honor was going to be a stretch. And I called back to West Point, because there was actually a Medal of Honor winner on the faculty there, and told him what had happened, and he's like, you know, he's like, "You just never know with these things." He's like, you know, "You just do the best write if you could." And so, I consider myself a decent writer, but not, like, you know, the best. Once I drafted up the-- The recommendation, I sent it to a couple of good friends who were really good writers out here at West Point, and we got the best product we thought we could get-- Keith ended up being the first aviator since the Vietnam War to get a Distinguished Service Cross. And Oh, that's wonderful

01:37:51DAHLSTRAND: Oh, that's wonderful

01:37:51ROBINSON: Oh, that's wonderful And Jason was given the Distinguished Flying Cross. We differentiated the awards because Keith was the decision maker in the aircraft, and we felt like that was appropriate. So, yeah. It was, you know, it all, I guess, came out in the wash that, you know, so, yeah, a few weeks later, I wrote General Odierno, and his son was actually in my company at West Point. We weren't friends or anything, but his son, Tony, lost an arm in Iraq. I mean, you know, so I wrote, I just wrote him a very simple message one day. I said, sir, you know, I know that you were instrumental in getting this award approved. I just want to tell you, thank you, you know, and he wrote me back and just a very simple note, you know, I'm glad we could get him what he deserved, you know. So it was a really cool story. So I went out to California after I redeployed for a ceremony, basically presenting the award to the family and everything. We got a chance to speak to that. And it was just really neat, you know, really neat outcome. So, you know, I think that's just a story that I always told my West Point cadets and I would show them portions of the award recommendation we made, because, you know, those are the kind of people in our formations that, you know, you just sometimes you get the privilege to you know to be their leader but a lot of times they're leading you right, you know, instead of the way around so.

01:39:06DAHLSTRAND: That's fantastic. One last question, for the historian reviewing this interview a hundred years from now, do you have any final thoughts that help to help inform the lessons you've learned from your military experience?

01:39:24ROBINSON: Yeah. You know, I think when we think about strategy on a large scale, you know, just the absolute, and history has told it time and time again, and we seem to forget it, the absolute unpredictability of war. Right. You know, just that, you know, when you make a decision, you know, you can anticipate some second and third order consequences, but you can never truly, you know, make a decision. predict the outcome of what you're doing, because war isn't inherently an unpredictable thing. When bullets are flying, people react in different ways. And, you know, so I think that's just one, one lesson, you know, in terms of, I guess, the big picture of war is just the reminder of how unpredictable your actions can be once you commit to combat. And the other thing I think I've learned throughout my career is just, you know, to, um, the best leaders are those that, you know, people respect a hard leader as long as they're honest with them, but also when they give them a chance to speak their mind and, and contribute, you know, so I've always tried to, in my, my career, I didn't do a very good job of this as a company commander. I'll, uh, I sat down with my lieutenants, both of them, when I wrote their last OERs. And I said, okay, after, after everything was said and done, and we were done with the evaluation, I said, just tell me, give me some honest feedback in terms of what it was like to work for me, you know, and, and like my leadership style and things like that. And one of the guys that we're still friends today, he kind of, he kind of like sat back a minute and he kind of got a grin on his face. He's like, you know, sir, you sure came in with a plan, you know, and that's all he needed to say. Right. That's all he needed to say. And that, you know, I'm like, wow, you know, because again, it was small companies and I could run it and I did, you know, I didn't delegate nearly as much or just involve them as much in decision-making as I could. So I learned that lesson quickly, you know, and I felt like in all my other jobs I've tried to do a very good job of delegating and to making sure that, not just delegation, but making sure that decisions that I may think are the right decision that I socialize with people, but also make sure that we look at all aspects of it and that I give other people a chance to make a decision. And even, you know, if they feel strongly about it, as long as, you know, it's not, I don't think there's any bad consequences for it, let them run their decision, you know? And maybe it'll be better than what I had thought, but at least then, too, they get some ownership of it and they feel more invested in the organization. So, I guess those two things, I guess, stand out in my mind.

01:42:00DAHLSTRAND: All right. Well, thank you for spending some time with us.

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