Interview with Verner Chaffin, May 17, 2007

FRAN LANE: This is a Goin Back: Remembering UGA interview with Dr. Verner Chaffin conducted by Fran Lane on May 15, 2007, at the University of Georgia Visitors Center in the Four Towers Building on College Station Road in Athens, Georgia. Thank you for being with us today, Dr. Chaffin.

VERNER CHAFFIN: My pleasure.

LANE: Lets--lets start at the beginning. Tell us about your growing up years, your early life, and--uh--your family.

CHAFFIN: I was born right after World War I--uh--in Stephens County, Georgia. 00:01:00Uh--my--uh--father was a country doctor up there and moved to Toccoa the big city in Stephens County and I went through the high schools--uh--and public school in Toccoa and--uh--finished high school in 1935. I then decided to go to Emory as a freshman so I went to Emory University in Atlanta for my freshman year and then after that I transferred to Georgia and spent the rest of my academic--uh--years as a student here at the University, so I was here at Georgia from 1936 to 1942.

LANE: So you had an epiphany and came to Georgia.

CHAFFIN: Yeah, thats--thats right. I was--uh--an only child and I was influenced by my dad so I was going with a premedical curriculum over at Emory for a--for a year or so and--and I kept it up at Georgia, as a matter of fact. I--I continued my premedical subjects so that when I applied to medical school I 00:02:00got in and--uh--they said--uh--what is your--your major. I said history. [laughs] That surprised them. I said but Ive had a lot of French. [laughs] I just had the minimum premedical subjects so I think they would have liked me as a guinea pig, you know. Everybody else had all these science degrees and chemistry and comparative anatomy and so on that--uh--that I decided though that Id--Id go with the law instead of medicine so--uh--I opted for the law school in 1939 instead of Medical College of Georgia or Emory medical school.

LANE: Well, lets talk about your time at Georgia. What did the campus look like when you got here?

CHAFFIN: Well, it was--uh--a very small-time campus compared to present day. We had about 3,400 students. It was almost entirely a residential college. There were very few commuters because we didnt have any cars. We didnt have any 00:03:00money. It was in the depths of the depression. Tuition was about $37.50 per quarter. Room and dormitory--the most modern dormitory on the campus was $10 a month. I stayed in Joe Brown Hall my first year here. A suit of clothes--Hart Shaffner and Marx clothes--was about $37.50. If you threw in an extra pair of trousers youd get them for $40. Meals were inexpensive. The Beanery, which is the place where the landscape architecture school is now--Environmental Design they call it I believe--is where the old Beanery used to be and--uh-- they would sell you 3 meals a day for $18.50 a month. So, we--we got by on--we didnt have much money but what we had went a long way, and the campus was--reflected that. It was very serene, very peaceful. Everybody was walking everywhere they 00:04:00went. They were no real parking facilities--no cars to park. I think in the law school we had 2 student cars--Ernest Vandiver and Bob Stephens--and they didnt have any place to park. Theyd just pull on a grassy bank over near Peabody Hall and just turn off the ignition and run over to the law school. It was no problem. But--uh--I remember--I cant think about the campus without thinking about Mr. Oscar G. Winemuller. He was the superintendent of grounds. We called him the little man on the horse. He had a--a workforce and hed start them at work on a place on the campus and then he got on his horse and patrolled. He wanted to make sure that--uh--that it would be bad for any student to be caught cutting across a spot there that he had just done. And he would charge them with that horse. [laughs] We--we--we would always look around to see if Mr. Winemuller was around.

LANE: Youd get run down. [both laugh]

CHAFFIN: Because that horse was a very effective deterrent. But he--he was in charge really at that time of developing the Franklin College campus as we know it. He started the--the development that we know. We see fruition today. He started planting grass, he started seeding lawns, he started planting shrubbery around buildings and so on. And he did a remarkable job. Aonther one of his sanctions against student--if--if he found a car that was parked out of place, why the people coming back wouldnt be able to drive it away because thered be no air in the tires. He had some very effective enforcement techniques. But we always knew Mr. Winemuller. We had to watch out for the little man on the horse and uh--but he did a great job with a very small crew and none of the mechanized equipment that we have today. It was done by hand and uh--.but he was--he was quite an interesting person and as long as you didnt affront him 00:06:00by cutting across some restricted area that he cherished why--he--he--the students were okay.

LANE: You were safe, huh?

CHAFFIN: We were safe. But uh--.uh thinking about the campus uh--the Academic Building was of course the closest one to the--to the Arch and uh--it was a multipurpose building back then, you know. We had--uh--all the administrative offices were on the 1st floor. Youd come in the 1st entrance from--from the Arch and thered be Uncle Tom Reed, the registrar. Hed be in the 1st office to the left as you came in. Everybody would greet Uncle Tom and the registrars office was on down--the clerical workers on down past his office. To the right was President Caldwell. You go on down the hall thered be Dean Hendren of arts and sciences. Next would be Dean Tate and uh--then wed go on around the bend and wed see Dr. Bocock and wed see Dr. Hooper and wed go on up towards the otherentrance uh--to the building. Wed--we would run 00:07:00into--uh the treasurers office--J.D. Bolton who was the treasurer at that time. Then the 2nd floor housed the English department. Dr. Park and--and--and the whole English department was housed on the 2nd floor. All of us liberal arts students had to take humanities 1 and 2 as required courses so we--we were--we knew the 2nd floor pretty well. The 3rd floor was history and political science. There was no separate political science department, just history and political science and Dr. McPherson was over both of them.

LANE: That was--was that alphabet?

CHAFFIN: No--that--that was uh--it was alphabet, yeah we called him Polymac.

LANE: Polymac.

CHAFFIN: Yeah, because poly meant numerous initials (Talking at the same time)

LANE: J.H.T..

CHAFFIN: J.H.T. McPherson, right. And uh--I had uh--I had the Constitutional Convention under him. I felt like I was a delegate to it, because he--he made us keep diaries as though we were going each day to the convention and we would 00:08:00come back and discuss things as though we had attended that convention. But he was quite a character. Well get into some of those personalities later, I guess, but that was--that was--that was the Academic Building that we knew. A big old barn-like structure but it housed some important--

LANE: Yes, it did.

CHAFFIN: --things of the university. We didnt have a separate language building. We didnt have Park Hall. As a matter of fact, uh--the--the Roosevelt New Deal was responsible for a lot of new buildings on the campus as a gift from the federal government. Uh--there was Baldwin Hall that was built as a demonstration school. There was--uh-- LeConte Hall. That was for science, there was Park Hall named for Dr. Park and--uh--there was the Fine Arts Auditorium that was built in about 1939--all of those were gifts from the federal government. All PWA projects that cost the university no--uh--stipend at all of 00:09:00the maintenance. But uh--looking back at that old campus again--uh--its--uh--the Old College, of course, was the oldest structure on the campus built in 1801 or 1803 I think it was, but it housed--it was the dormitory for independent juniors and seniors, I mean non-fraternity people. They--they were the occupants of--of Old College and --uh--they had their own leadership, you know. Well get to talk about cmpus politics a little bit later I guess but uh--they--they--they formed a cohesive group of--of --actually rivaling the fraternity people. They had their own organizations that were very much similar to what the Inter-Fraternity Council was like. But over to the left of the--uh--Old College was the general library. Of course, thats where 00:10:00President Adams is with his administration. Over at New College housed--the football team. On the 2nd and 3rd floors--

LANE: And its still standing.

CHAFFIN: Still--still standing, yeah, thats right (laughing). And the 1st floor were mailboxes for students. Students could rent a mailbox and--uh--the postal service would put in the student mail every day. Theyd come by and pick up the mail. Also on the 1st floor of the--uh--New College was called the Co-op. Thats a place where the students would come and--and gather for snacks and--uh--fast food and so on. We talked about--the term was jellying in the Co-op--I guess you meant you were going to the Co-op and you just ought to sit there and congeal for a while. That was the idea. I believe Ill go over to the Co-op and jelly for a little while, you know. [laughs] Sit there and relax with a cup of coffee or a milkshake and--and--and uh--but uh--that was, well 00:11:00then--then over on the other part, past the Chapel, we had Moore College and that was the home of the physics department. I had a year of physics there when I was an aspiring pre-med student. And to--to--to the right of that was old LeConte Hall before--.it--it was the home of the zoology department. I dont remember what it is now, but it--

LANE: Is it Meigs Hall?

CHAFFIN: Meigs Hall, thats right. It was the old LeConte Hall. I had zoology there and dissected frogs for--for a year, a fetal pig I think once or twice. Maybe a dogfish shark. [laughs] And then right next, down below that to--to the left of it was--was Candler Hall and that was the home of the independent non-fraternity freshman students, called the Candler Hall barons. [laughs] Going on down was the CJ building, thats the commerce-journalism building. The 00:12:00commerce school which is now the business school occupied the 1st wing going down. There was an auditorium in between CJ auditorium and then the J school with Dean Drewry occupied the other wing of the building and--uh--thats--he had a few encroachments, I think we had some courses in non-journalism that had slipped over into his wing of the building but he didnt care for that too much. But, anyway, that was essentially the campus as--

LANE: It almost ended right there at --uh--at the end of what is now sort of the traditional old north--.

CHAFFIN: Thats right, and--and the law school was right there across the street from the CJ building, well it still is. And uh--

LANE: Was that Hirsch Hall?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, thats it. And--the--the--there was no parking lot there. Herty--Herty--well, I ought to mention that, uh-- That road was--was constructed in 1937. It was--it was a horrendous project. It rained all winter and there was 00:13:00a huge ditch all the way from uh--Broad Street all the way past the Academic Building, the Chapel, and on down through the--through the entire campus and--and made it almost impossible for students to jump over that ditch, you know. It was a huge 6-foot-deep ditch and it rained all the time. But that was a major project uh--of--uh.

LANE: Herty Drive.

CHAFFIN: Of Herty Drive.

LANE: Yeah.

CHAFFIN: And then right after that was completed, well the Herty Field, they decided to put a few asphalt places over there for the faculty to park, and so that was uh--that was Herty Field and I--I remember that--I remember that project because that was I guess the 1st byline I ever got in the Red and Black. I wrote that story about that road coming through there. [laughs]

LANE: And were still tearing up every street in town today, you know.

CHAFFIN: We are. Weve torn up Herty Field and now we got fountains out there now.

LANE: Yeah, thats right. Now Dr. Chaffin, was Woodruff Hall there at the time?

CHAFFIN: Oh yes. Woodruff Hall was uh--uh--the home of the basketball team and of all the social activities almost on--on the campus.

LANE: All the dances and things. And then, was it --.uh--sort of a roll down to the football field and then up to the--

CHAFFIN: It was--it was a separate building right across from Memorial Hall, right across the--the road from Memorial Hall and its located on just a portion of where the journalism/psychology building would be today. And--uh--that--that was--it was--they said that uh--the creaky firetrap--Woodruff Hall, they used to say--thats the only basketball team in the country who had to cancel games because of the weather. [both laugh] Because the roof would leak and theyd cancel the game.

LANE: Well now, you mentioned campus politics, so I--this is maybe a segue into that. It seems like to me that there was sort of a--uh--not only a Greek/non-Greek uh--political parallel but also sort of North Campus/South 00:15:00Campus. Was that right? Is that--

CHAFFIN: Well, there--there was. The Ag Hill group had--had their own politics, with forestry and--and Conner Hall and Camp Wilkins and--uh--the ag school. They had their own politics, their own organizations that they--they got into--the clubs. It was a distinct campus really. Because they were separated by a pretty formidable barrier. There was no road. There was just a little path going up through the woods past Sanford Stadium on up to--

LANE: Right, no bridge. No road.

CHAFFIN: No bridge or anything. But--uh--uh--

LANE: Was it the GOP? The Grand Old Party--was that what the independents--

CHAFFIN: Thats right. And that--I understand that party was formed back in the 1920s in order to give the--the non-fraternity people a--.an advantage or at least a parity with--with the fraternity people in an organization. And they 00:16:00would elect their own officers, they would elect a campus leader. There would be a campus-wide election. And he would be the dominant person on the campus--the spokesman--for the independent students that would be just as influential if not more so than the Inter-Fraternity Council would be with--with reference to the--to the fraternities. And those independent students--the juniors and seniors--occupied Old College as I mentioned and they had the prerogative of selling rat caps to freshman students. Thats the only place you could buy them. You had to go over to Old College and buy a rat cap for 75 cents I think. They also had the privilege of selling rings to seniors, so they got you going and coming.

LANE: Talk about being a freshman and having to wear a rat cap and what--what that meant.

CHAFFIN: Yeah, the--the freshman uh--of course the 1st sign they saw was dont walk under the Arch. Freshman do not walk under the Arch. Well, okay. That was 00:17:00one tradition that was almost inviolate up to World War II days, you know, I guess that its pretty hard to enforce if they ever attempted to after that but oh--the--the most I guess the most conspicuous feature of freshman hazing was the Shirt Tail Parade. And uh--I think somebody said that was a misnomer--that they didnt have any shirts so they couldnt have any shirt tails. Thered be a big pep rally and a bonfire down around Woodruff Hall or the polo field is what we called it at that time, down below the military building where we had military drills, ROTC. It was called the polo field, so thered be a big pep rally and a bonfire before the 1st football game and after that the freshmen would be herded into Woodruff Hall and told to strip. They stripped down--took off all their clothes except the shorts--and then they were forced to run 2 miles from Woodruff Hall out to the Coordinate Campus 00:18:00where the freshman and sophomore girls were housed. It was almost like a prison--you had to sign in and sign out under watchful eyes of housemothers at Gilmore Hall and Braswell and so on. But uh--they were encouraged on the way to--to yell derogatory things about Tech and the next opponent that Georgia had, so theyd be going through town running and yelling things and it would be te upperclass men goading them along with belts and--

LANE: Paddles?

CHAFFIN: Thats right, paddles and belts. Well, they--they would uh--be exhausted and fall out on the--on the grassy area when they got to the Coordinate Campus but then they were rewarded, those who survived that night with a dance that would be given in their honor in Woodruff Hall of course. But, uh--the Candler Hall barons also made a good convenient place for the--uh--independent people who lived in Old College to haze them because they were just very nicely located, they could be easily supervised and so the custom 00:19:00that we--you know about ringing the Chapel Bell, that was done by the freshmen back then from Candler Hall, they would be lined up, a big long line to the Chapel Bell from Candler Hall. Sometimes thered be a student cutting off the hair with scissors while they were waiting for their respective turn to ring the bell until midnight and--uh--as we said they had to wear rat caps. That was for the 1st--1st quarter. That was--that was enforced unless you could come up with a--.if you--if you were able to get a Tech cap, then you were excused then. That--that was a great prize, you know, if youd shown that youd get a Tech cap, you know, that was alright. Or if Georgia beat Tech, then that was the end of the rat caps for that quarter.

LANE: So everybody was truly pulling for the Dogs, huh?

CHAFFIN: Thats it.

LANE: I hear ya.

CHAFFIN: All of them were pulling for the Dogs, yeah. And they did--they did have freshman and sophomore chapel and--uh--compulsory chapel. Dean Tate would 00:20:00come and give them the rules of the day of the week and make sure that they were behaving and there was a lot of in loco parentis of--

LANE: Ill say.

CHAFFIN: --of the students and uh--

LANE: Talk a little bit--we--lets go back. You were a history undergrad major. Were there some faculty influences on your life at that time? I know--

CHAFFIN: Yeah, def--definitely so. Uh--I guess, the thing that struck me was the--the loyalty of--of--of this faculty. We had I think it was 6 or 7 faculty members all who had been here over 40 years in--in continuous teaching here at the University of Georgia. They could have gone elsewhere but they--they liked Georgia and Georgia liked them and it was just a good symbiotic relationship. Bocock was one in Greek and McPherson of course was--was another one. John 00:21:00Morris in the germ--Germanic languages department was another. Charles Morton Strahan was one. Snelling was one. Did I mention McPherson? He--he was--and Hooper--Doug D. Hooper. But, uh--I--you--you would know those people because they would stand out on the campus uh--As matter of fact, when Dr. Hooper finally retired I guess he died instead of retiring but he-- he had been here 55 years, teaching 55 years in--in the Latin department. He came here in 1890 and so hed been here 46 years when I came--came here, you see, and I think he died in 1945 during or right after the waning years of World War II.

LANE: Was Dr. Merton Coulter on campus?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, yeah. He was quite a popular man with his Georgia history book that he authored and his classes were so popular that--uh--they had to move them 00:22:00out of--uh--Academic Building of the 3rd floor and--and his classes met in Peabody Hall, in the auditorium of Peabody Hall. [laughs] But--uh--one of the most popular people that--that influenced my life was Dr. Payne, W.O. Payne. He was uh--the professor of English history and--uh--he taught by the essay method. We had no textbook. Hed come up with a topic and wed all have to go over and--and research that topic and come back in the next day and wed explore it together. You know, hed usually have a small class but uh--he would work us very, very hard and hed tell us, well now, on--on the exam gentleman, you--you--your sins will be not of--not of commission but of omission. And he have us discuss the origin and rise and fall of the British empire, you know. You wouldnt know what to leave out, but anyway--he was--he was a very 00:23:00influential--he was an Anglophile. He knew the--he knew the royal family just as though, like he was related to them. He knew all the prime ministers. He had inside information about them and he--he goaded us, actually his example--wed look for small little tidbits of information thinking we would be springing something new on the group when wed come in and report from our interviews and--and research from the library, but I was taking English constitutional history at the very time of the crisis in England with uh--with King Edward the 8th and Wallace Warfield Simpson, the twice-divorced American whom he wanted to marry and we--we watched all of that and we had Dr. Paynes insights on that whole process and it just made constitutional history come alive to us, you know, but uh--he abdicated the throne, you know, in order to marry the woman I love and came out with his speech so--he--his younger brother, King George the 00:24:006th, came over and hes of course the father of Queen Elizabeth but, uh--Edwards father was Edward the 7th and uh--

LANE: Ive always heard how lucky England was that King George was the King during the war, that he was a --.

CHAFFIN: Yes, yeah. He gave a lot of stability (Talking at the same time) and a lot of leadership that way. But--uh--Dr. Payne was uh--was just a master. He also was chairman of the--faculty chairman of athletics so he had a pretty--I dont know whether we had an athletic director at that time, we may have, but he--he was quite busy. He followed the football team and we had Saturday classes but he was done with them on Saturday. He was always following the team. [laughs]

LANE: So you had Saturday classes till noon or--?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, till--till noon.

LANE: Till noon and then so--and then, when did you play football? You played football in the afternoon?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, in the afternoon. 2:00 or so.

LANE: Well now, Sanford Stadium was built in 29, is that right?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, I believe it was, yeah, and it held about 25 or 30,000 people. It was about half full because nobody could--had the money to get there or maybe the incentive--Georgia was not a national power back then. We were--we played the Yale game--the dedication game--we--we got some national prominence I think but football was--uh--it--we didnt have the sky boxes. We didnt have all those things. It was just a nice beautiful bowl that sits--sat between the 2 campuses, you know, just an absolutely magnificent arena for sports. We didnt have big billboards and didnt have a bridge going across.

LANE: I hear you. I think those big billboards are too big and too loud.

CHAFFIN: [laughing] Another professor who--uh--besides Coulter and Payne, was Dr. Shinn in the law school--Henry Shinn. And--uh--he was--he--he taught us all 00:26:00as freshman. We had him in torts. He was an interesting character. He was about 6 feet tall, totally--no hair on his head at all. Hed come from Kansas. Hed migrated out to the west coast. Hed graduated in law from Stanford and he got into the trust administration field and he was head of the trust department with the Bank of Italy and then all of a sudden he shows up at Mercer teaching and so we--we recruited him from Mercer and brought him up here as a member of our law school faculty. He was at Mercer 2-3 years. But he was--uh--he was an interesting fellow. Hed been in his earlier days, hed been a lecturer for the--for the Chautauqua. Hed kind of run and show us, you know. He was an entertainer and he believed that --uh--that education should not be dull and boring, you know. It could be entertaining. It could be--a way to learn would be to make it interesting and lively and he did exactly that in those law 00:27:00courses. He gave them a--a life --uh--and made us realize what was really behind a lot of those archaic rules of law that we--we were trying to penetrate, you know. He helped us do that. He--he--he became acting dean of the law school during World War II, Dean Hosch was in the military and was called to active duty in cavalry I believe. Before that time, Dean Hosch had had a short stint s dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. He moved over there to arts and sciences for a year or two.

LANE: Well, now, at that time law school was 2 years. Is that right?

CHAFFIN: 3 years.

LANE: It was 3?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, it always has been, since weve been in that building, yeah. Yeah. It was a 3 year course--but uh--lets see--besides Dr. Shinn and Coulter, I guess I ought to mention--I never had classes under these people but 00:28:00uh--Dr. Hooper--we mentioned him earlier--his--he--his classic uh--image I guess was a dark suit, a gray Stetson hat, horn-rimmed glasses--uh--He came down as a very young man. He was in his 20s--I wasnt around at that time; that was in the 1890s--but he was--he was one of the founders of--of Sphinx, Dr. Hooper was. Number 2, and so those--I was uh--I think I was taking the certificates in there to get him to sign--uh--the membership certificates in 1941 and uh--.he said, You come back tomorrow. I want you to bring me a pen and I want you to bring some--some India ink and Ill sign these. I said alright. Well, I came back, I just had a Parker pen, I had some blue/black ink, well he hit the ceiling. Why that desecrates the--these are important documents. These are 00:29:00signing for the ages. I went back and I came back the next day with the appropriate equipment, you know, and he put his signature on there--W. D. Hooper. He was also the secretary of the faculty and of course he signed in that capacity each students diploma and--uh--you can--its easy to see why the diplomas continued to be in Latin until he retired.

LANE: Until he was gone.

CHAFFIN: Thats right. Until after World War II. They were all in Latin. He said they might not be able to read them but at least that gives it a little bit of class to the--to the diploma. [both laughing] Another--another fellow that I ought to mention would be --uh-- Uncle Tom Reed. I mentioned him, but he was the registrar. He was the--uh--the--the story teller. He said his hobby was reminiscing and--uh--he was--he related well to students and his door was always open. It was the 1st door to your left as you walked into the--into the academic building and Uncle Tom was always the--he had an encyclopedic memory. I was told 00:30:00by one of the--one of my colleagues. He said I ran into professor Reed up in a hotel in New York City in an elevator and I said how you doing Mr. Reed. And he looked at him and he said, My name--my name is--is Barham and Reed said Yeah, youre from the class of 1936 Blakely, Georgia and he almost fell over. It just--it just was just fabulous the way he could remember students. But he--he loved students and loved--loved being with students and he gave freely of his time, you know, to the students. He was an--uh--just a great figure on the campus, you know, Uncle Tom. We all called him Uncle Tom. [laughs].

LANE: Well, you know, uh--as weve talked to people it seems like we truly were blessed with wonderful people here who cared about this institution.

CHAFFIN: Exactly, yeah, exactly. People who taught here for 55 years like Dr. Hooper.

LANE: Yeah. I--I mean that--that to me is amazing. You mentioned Joe Brown. Did 00:31:00you live in Joe Brown the whole time you were here?

CHAFFIN: I--the 1st year I did. I was--I was a sophomore there at Joe Brown, $10 a month. That was the newest dormitory in the campus and the nicest dormitory. It beat a lot of these others like Candler Hall where those barons were living. Nobody wanted--.

LANE: Holes in the wall and--

CHAFFIN: Thats right.

LANE: Where did you eat daily?

CHAFFIN: I--I--I guess I ate something--I ate--One quarter I ate at the Beanery.

LANE: Mm-huh.

CHAFFIN: Uh--at the--the--I cant remember the real name of it but it was just called the Beanery.

LANE: Denmark Hall.

CHAFFIN: Denmark Hall. Thats right, Denmark Hall. And--uh--from that point on I used to buy meal tickets at Tonys and the Georgian Hotel and Thorntons restaurant. You could buy $10 meal tickets for $8 or something, you know, and youd get lunch for 50 cents. Youd get a deluxe eat-in meal for 75 cents.

LANE: Goodness.

CHAFFIN: So that meal ticket would go a long way.

LANE: So you could eat down--you ate downtown?

CHAFFIN: I ate downtown much of the time. Uh--and after I left Joe Brown hall, 00:32:00then I had a room in a private uh--I rented a room in a private home on Cloverhurst Avenue.

LANE: Mm-huh.

CHAFFIN: I decided I wanted to get away from some of that dormitory life, so I was over there with two ladies, the Mackey sisters I believe it was, so I stayed there for 5--6 months or so and uh--enjoyed that very much. And then I got into fraternity life and moved into--into the fraternity house.

LANE: Well thats out of the frying pan and into the fire.

CHAFFIN: Yeah, it was. That--that was going from--from the quiet neighborhood to--[both laughing]--to--down there on South Lumpkin Street, 294 South Lumpkin Street where the--

LANE: Thats where the sisters--

CHAFFIN: --the house is now. Where the graduate dormitory used to be.

LANE: Okay. Thats where the Sigma Nu house was?

CHAFFIN: Thats right. That--that was the old Sigma Nu house. A white frame house there and uh--so I--I pledged and went through that pledge class with--with a group and was initiated in 1937 and--uh--I lived there for oh--for 00:33:00the rest of that year I guess. And then the next year I was up at the Gilbert Hotel and thats the place right above the Varsity.

LANE: Mm-huh.

CHAFFIN: It was a hotel. But it--it was all students there and it was just a convenient place you--you could walk down the steps, grab a bite to eat at the Varsity, run across the road to the Academic Building and you were right there.

LANE: Didnt--wouldnt take long at all.

CHAFFIN: No, and it was $10 a month too, the same as Joe Brown and they furnished a change of linens every--every--every week and uh--so a lot of people lived there. It was occupied entirely by university students, just like a dormitory.

LANE: Well now, when you were in law school did you stay?

CHAFFIN: When I was in law school--the 1st year law students lived in Milledge Hall.

LANE: Okay.

CHAFFIN: Milledge Hall over on the--over on the campus over there near Lucas 00:34:00Hall. Milledge and uh--we had a--Dean Hosch had us fixed up with a satellite library and a lot of research books so that we could get up in the middle of the night if we felt the need and look up a point of law instead of having to run up to the library. That was--that was nice. And then--uh--my 2nd year of law school I lived in the graduate dormitory. Thats--that was where the Sigma Nu house used to be and we were--we ran into some trouble with the federal government on building a new house there. We had so many PWA projects on the campus, that had to be another PWA project. It turned out to be--it was discovered in Washington that it was going to be a-- a --for a fraternity and therefore would qualify for the PWA so we never got in the house. Sigma Nus didnt. [laughs]. But I was determined that--to get in that house some way or another so it--it was turned into a graduate dormitory for graduate students and law students and so I 00:35:00lived there for my 2nd year of law school and uh--[laughs] Then by the next year, the Sigma Nus had then moved into River Road out there.

LANE: Right.

CHAFFIN: So they had the new house.

LANE: Beautiful old home.

CHAFFIN: Beautiful home. Now its a parking lot again.

LANE: Yeah, sad. Talk a little bit--because Dr. Chaffin, you were so involved while you were on campus--uh--and--uh--an outstanding student: Sphinx, Phi Beta Kappa, ODK, Gridiron, Blue Key. Talk a little bit about what that--what extracurricular life meant to you.

CHAFFIN: Well, uh--[clears throat] maybe we could run through a typical uh--typical week. Uh--things had a definite pattern, the extracurricular clubs and things. On Monday nights that was all the fraternities and sororities meetings, I guess its probably the same way today.

LANE: It is.

CHAFFIN: Tuesday nights was Demosthenian and Phi Kappa literary societies. Mr. 00:36:00Eddie Secrests Voluntary Religious Association also met on Tuesday nights. Wednesday nght was the Red and Black night to put the Red and Black together for the week. Uh--it was--the staff would meet over in the basement of the journalism wing of the CJ building and --uh-- in the wee hours, wed stay over there till the--however long was necessary to get the issue in shape and the next morning itd be taken down to--to McGregors where it would be printed and itd be distributed late Thursday night and Friday. So it was a weekly paper. And--uh--I was uh--I was interested in journalism and I--I--I signed up for the--uh--Red and Black staff, went down there, and I finally got that. Well my 1st assignment was for--just bleak. I was assigned uh--uh--I was assigned the academic building. So Id go knocking on those doors and the people would be in there with little wooden--little stoves, you know. They didnt have central 00:37:00heat, you know. Each office had a little stove. They kept a little fire going. But--uh--I finally got that byline about the road coming through and that came to the attention of Dean Drewry and he called me in and said that he noticed that I was on the staff but he suggested that I ought to be a journalism major. That it was a professional school and a professional adjunct--that the Red and Black was a paper there that was for the training of journalism students. So he suggested that I could not go higher than a copy desk where I was at that time unless I switched over to the J school. Well I decided Id stick with history I guess but I--I always enjoyed journalism and I thought Drewry was an excellent teacher. As a matter of fact, I--a quarter or so later, I--I took one of his classes in the journalism school just for the heck of it. He saw me and Oh, have you--have you joined us? I said no, net yet. Im still over there at--Oh, drat. [laughs]. But--uh--lets see, we--we were--we were through 00:38:00Wednesday night with the Red and Black. Okay, Thursday night would be music appreciation and that was Mr. Hugh Hodgsons big night. He believed in music for the masses for the common people and so--uh--it--it meant for an hour or two he was on center stage. He was one of the fine--finest pianists in the nation--Mr. Hugh was--he was director of the Mens Glee Club and head of the music school, but this was his way of popularizing music so hed take a piece and hed break it down into themes and he would play them over, just like teaching a class, and wed be sitting out there. I think it was lost on--on many of us, though, because it was a good chance for the Coordinate girls to sign out for music appreciation and some of them never got to the Chapel, though. [laughs] It was very popular and theyd all sign out for it. [laughs] And, lets see, that was--that was Thursday night and uh--but he--he was--he 00:39:00was another interesting person, though, Mr. Hugh Hodgson. He was just a dynamic--uh--person and--and if you--if you came to it and listened youd learn a lot about music though. He would sing the theme and hum it and play it over and over again, listen to this now, and it was just a tremendous--uh--educational experience. But it was lost on a lot of us, I think because--(inaudible) the purpose of it. And then on--of course the weekend started even though we had classes on Saturday, Friday night was some dances in Woodruff Hall. A lot of them were open to anybody who could pay $1 and passed Dean Tates sobriety test. Uh--a lot of them were fraternity dances or sponsored by sororities or some of them were tea dances and--uh--and then Saturday night would be more of the same. Uh--very few of the dances were closed, though, because they seemed to want stags to come in, you know, because 00:40:00the stags would break on peoples dancing, you know, and a girl didnt want to be stuck, even though she may care a great deal about her date, she didnt want to be seen dancing with the same person all night, you know, shed be stuck with him. Sometimes the boys would feel the same way and sometimes theyd have a $5 bill or $1 behind the (laughing, inaudible)--for the stag line. But it--it was a very--uh--egalitarian campus. There--there was--the upperclass girls had it much better than the Coordinate girls, because they could live in Lucy Cobb or they could live in--in--in dormitories, or they could live in sorority houses and they had to sign in and out but they didnt have quite the watchful eye that they had out in Coordinate Campus, you know.

LANE: What were the big--the big events on campus? Homecoming? Or--?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, the two big--uh--big social events in the fall was--was the 00:41:00Homecoming and--uh--the other one--the equivalent in April or early May would be the Little Commencement dances and--uh--the--the--of course that would be without the football game and without a lot of the hoopla that went along with the athletic events. But--uh--Homecoming was just a--a fabulous--of course, it coincided with the Homecoming game, of course, and it started out in the morning with uh--the--Sphinx initiates coming out with their white S on the back of their jackets and--uh--then--uh--and then being driven around town in a horse-drawn carriage and--uh--then we had a that--that--that evening, there was--there was a big pep rally and a bonfire down on the polo field and then 00:42:00thered be the 1st dance, like wed have big bands that wed sign up for the--thered be 4 dances over a 2 day period of time. Thered be a--a--thered be a--an evening dance and uh--and a breakfast dance on Saturday morning and then a dance in the evening on Saturday night, so thered be 2 night dances and 2 breakfast dances and a tea dance, they called it--

LANE: In the afternoon.

CHAFFIN: In the afternoon. And we would have a big band like--like Benny Goodman or Kay Kaiser or Jean Cooper or Jan Savitt and--uh--then on Saturday morning would be the breakfast dance. That was poorly attended because people who had a bad--a big night before, so that was usually very sparsely attended. But here the Sphinx people would still be running around with S all over their backs and--uh--and then the game would come along at 2:00, of course we didnt 00:43:00worry about change of schedules. No television. Itd just be a radio broadcast on WSB and--uh--after the game would be the tea dance and then thered be the evening dance and the Friday night would be the Inter-Fraternity Council lead out. Uh-- Then Saturday night would be the independent, the campus leader and his officers would have their own lead out on Saturday night--the officers--and uh--the Sphinx people would be presented both nights on the stage and there was just a whole lot of hoopla going on. Uh--I remember--I remember that we had a little bit of mix up with Jan Savitt Top Hatters, I think. Wed signed them. Wed signed them through an agency in Atlanta and--but--about a week before the event they called the Inter-Fraternity Council and said We dont have a 00:44:00place to stay in Athens and our business--our tour director has failed to make any reservations at all and we cant get into a hotel--the Georgian Hotel, the Holman Hotel--we have no place to stay. And so what--what are you going to do about it? [laughs] We decided we would--uh--try to bribe the fellows who stayed in Milledge Hall to give up their beds to Jan Savitt and his Top Hatters, which we did. It didnt come cheap, though. They moved out. They--they werent satisfied with just a block ticket to the dances. They needed something more than that to move out. I dont blame them. But anyway, that crisis was solved because without Jan Savitt, we wouldnt have had much going for us (Talking at the same time) except the football game and we were playing Dartmouth I think and it was a one-sided game from Georgias standpoint. But 00:45:00that--that matter was resolved. We--we--we--counseled and talked to them over there and bribed them to give up their room and moved Jan Savitt in there for 2 nights: Friday night and Saturday night. And--uh--I guess the winter quarter was, of course it was a fairly short quarter and it was probably about as--I guess the main events in the winter quarter would be--would be the Military Ball. That was always huge thing for the ROTC students, you know. Scabbard and Blade and the military pomp and ceremony and the commanding officers of the ROTC unit and it was--it was quite a pageant. And the Barristers Ball was a close 2nd I guess. That was a law school function. But in addition to that, I guess the Pandora Beauty Review was held during the winter quarter usually and youd 00:46:00have about oh, 25 contestants, maybe theyd be sponsored by different fraternities or dormitories or clubs, you know, theyd take uh--a coed--this is our sponsor for the Beauty Review and wed have photographs--they--they come marching down to be in the Fine Arts Building usually and--uh--the--the judges would select a field of--of 8 and then theyd send off those photographs to Hollywood or some place like Helena Rubenstein or somebody who was noted for expertise in that area. And theyd come back with--with the winner and then the others would be alternates. They would be part of the beauty court and theyd be featured prominently in the Pandora, the whole beauty section, you know. That was always the look-forward-to event in the--in the kind 00:47:00of doldrums of the--the winter quarter--the Pandora Beauty Review. I remember, though, I guess it was my well--the--the--that ditch through the campus, though, that took a lot--the caused a lot of cancellations, you know, because it--it was just awful. The red mud from that and--and you could hardly get from the CJ building up to the Co-op, you know, and New College. Uh--there was hardly any way to get there--jumping ditches and running way up to Broad Street and coming back down.

LANE: Come back down.

CHAFFIN: --or something like that. But--uh--they--uh--lets see. Maybe we ought to get on over to the Llittle Commencement--thats where were headed right now. The Little Commencement--uh--and--that was in April or May and it was about--about a repeat of Homecoming except, well I forgot to mention back at Homecoming though, at the half-time of the game, there was the Senior Parade and 00:48:00the members of the senior class would deck out in--in--in derbies and canes and like a uniform and theyd go between the hedges and theyd walk all around, thered be 3-400 students parading around the field for the last time as seniors, you know, walking in and out of the stadium and on the field would be the initiates of Sphinx and they would be doing a skit and it would usually be a parody of some political or contemporary event and we--we--we were out there on the field and--uh--while the seniors were parading around it was quite a spectacle.

LANE: Talk about that a little bit, and I think this is a good way to--to--to segue into the politics of the day--uh. Please talk 1st about what was going on in the state of Georgia and lets talk about the--uh--the governor and the Cocking affair and then Ill ask you to talk about campus politics a little 00:49:00bit more in depth.

CHAFFIN: Well, Dean Cocking, Walter D. Cocking, hed been here several years. He came here in the mid 30s I guess from Iowa. He was a very impressive looking fellow--6 feet 2 inches tall, great big--and uh--he had been on the presidents education advisory commission, you know, he was well known in--in--in education circles and also as dean of the Peabody College of Education. But--uh--sometime in the--in the--in 1941, Governor--Governor Eugene Talmadge had heard some reports that he was favoring integration--racial integration. I think maybe hed been hearing some reports from people on his staff maybe--ill founded, but secretaries would make up things, but at least 00:50:00Governor Talmadge wanted him off the campus. And--uh--so he asked could he be removed. President Caldwell refused and--uh--the governor went to the Board of Regents and at first they refused. It was a split vote. By that--at that time the board served at the pleasure of the governor so he was very displeased with some of them. So he appointed--he fired them and appointed others and finally he had a Board of Regents that would do his bidding and so they fired Walter Cocking for no reason at all and that brought--uh--that was the deluge then--that--the accrediting agencies took note of the--the flagrant political interference with the governor in--in academic affairs at the state university 00:51:00so we were put on probation. The law school--all the schools on the campus--were on probation so here we were trying to get law degrees and we didnt know how--whether theyd be valid or not in terms of having any currency outside of the--outside of the state. So it was--it was a bad situation and it was--the students protested. I went with a motorcade of students over there to the--to the Capitol and--uh--we hung Governor Talmadge in effigy on the statute of Tom Watson--on the Capitol grounds. Well, that didnt seem to get his notice too much--too much.. and I was with another group--a group of students--who privately went over to the Governors Mansion one evening and had a--had a conference with him and his proposition to us was--uh--well, you go back and you tell those students that if they dont uh--if--well--.well accredit our 00:52:00own schools. If--if--if they dont accredit us, well, well accredit our own schools, just tell them that. We went back and told them that, and that--that set the thing even more. So--that was the posture when we got to the Homecoming game and then the Sphinx skit was probably the--we had people who represented Dean Cocking holding a black doll. We had another one who represented Eugene Talmadge with his bangs down, slapping his red suspenders, saying My friend in the South has but 3 friends: Sears Roebuck, Eugene Talmadge, and God Almighty. [laughs] And then we had--we also had a representative of the supine Board of Regents. They were cowering in fear from Talmadge, so that was our skit basically. We were running up and down the field trying to depict that type of message. It went over pretty well and I think maybe that maybe got a 00:53:00little bit more attention to the governor, that Herman Talmadge called us after that and talked about it and--but I guess the matter of the controversy was resolved about 3 weeks later with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. But--uh--and so it--that took a lot of--a lot--a lot of the steam out of it, but uh--eventually it was resolved the next years election when Ellis Arnall, who was then the attorney general of Georgia, ran on a platform of independence for the Board of Regents and so he--he beat Eugene Talmadge at that election and--uh--then we had a Board of Regents now thats not subservient to the governor. They were appointed for fixed terms and cant be just--uh--fired at the behest of the governor.

LANE: So Sphinx and students may have made a difference--

CHAFFIN: We made a difference. We finally got his attention, I think.

LANE: I think so.

CHAFFIN: The idea of accrediting our own school didnt go over too well. They even said, well Eugene Talmadge wouldnt have a cow on his farm that wasnt accredited and didnt have a pedigree and he--he--ought to care the same thing about his students that he does about his livestock.

LANE: Well now, you finished here in 1939 summa cum laude, I believe. Thats wonderful. Is that correct?

CHAFFIN: Well, that--

LANE: That was your undergraduate degree.

CHAFFIN: That was the undergraduate. Yeah, that was in law school in 42.

LANE: Finished in law school. So you were here a while?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, 6--6--years.

LANE: Not a bad thing. You know, there are lots of students that are here now that dont have a degree after 6 years, Dr. Chaffin.

CHAFFIN: [laughs] Thats true.

LANE: Of any kind.

CHAFFIN: Thats true, yeah.

LANE: Well now, you finished law school in 1942. Did you go--the war, of course, had started. Did you go straight into the service at that time, or--?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, thats--uh--well in 1939 President Roosevelt ordered a peace 00:55:00time registration of all males, you know, who were in our age bracket 18 to 35 I think it was so, you know, we had all marched down to the demonstration school for draft registration so uh--that was very fortunate for--for the countrys standpoin because we had a ready-made basis for mobilizing after Pearl Harbor when we were really at war, we didnt have to worry about registering people for the draft--they were already registered and so we were in the posture. We were already in the draft pool and then we just had to be activated. So--uh--that--that was a very perplexing--uh--period of time because we were just going into final exams when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and it finally--the final exams just had a very diminished importance to us at that time because we were all then wondering what we could do for the country. The country was in--in desperate shape, you know, and uh--we--we didnt have a 00:56:00strong military. We were not prepared to fight a war. But--uh--anyway the law students, we found out we couldnt get into anything relating to law--the JAG branch was filled up--and so we all were left to our devices to find some way that we could be of service and maybe utilize some level of educational skills that we had, other than the draft--and uh--some of us--most of us were pretty creative in doing that. I--I found a--I saw a little ad in a Phi Beta Kappa publication that said Navy wants Phi Beta Kappa linguists. Well, I wasnt much of a linguist. Id had a minor French but I couldnt have ordered a glass of wine in a French restaurant. It wasnt taught that way. I could read Rousseau and Hugo but--at any rate, I--I--I checked into that and--uh--was--.was admitted 00:57:00to--uh--the language school out in Boulder, Colorado. First I had to go through basic training at Notre Dame and then went to the language school on my own. Uh--there were very few southerners at that language school. It was an intensive course of study. It went for 14 months. It compressed 3 years down to 14 months of study. And--uh--

LANE: You were learning Japanese?

CHAFFIN: We were learning Japanese. And Id never seen a Japanese person. At that time, we didnt have any of them in Toccoa and I dont think any of them in Athens at the time. (Laughing) So there I was, being taught by teachers who had come from the relocation settlements where President Roosevelt had ordered them interred, so we took several--a number of those, and joined the Navy faculty at Boulder at the University of Colorado campus. I was one of 2-3 southerners and they always kidded me, saying I spoke Japanese with a southern 00:58:00accent and they couldnt understand me in either English or Japanese. Id say, well thats fine, hes from Georgia. But we--we survived that. It was--uh--it was an ordeal. What they threw at us--so much, and expected us to--to learn it. Time was of the essence, though, and then when we finished the 14-month course, then we were sent to an intelligence school in--uh--New York City and we learned some of the craft of intelligence and--uh--and then we were on active duty. I was first with the Office of Naval Intelligence in Washington for sort of like a training period and then with Pacific military intelligence research at Camp Richie and then an intelligence agency out of Pearl Harbor called JICPOA--Joint Intelligence Center Pacific Ocean Areas. And then from there, we were all over the Pacific, wherever we were needed and finally from 00:59:00Okinawa into Japan at the end of the war after the 2 atomic bombs had been dropped on--uh--Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

LANE: Did you--your job task that you performed was basically to just see things that have been intercepted and try to decode those?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, interviewing prisoners of war, radio broadcasts, interceptions, uh--the translation of captured documents. In the early days the average Japanese soldier just about kept his own diary with him and that was just a complete map of where that unit had been.

LANE: Yeah, gosh.

CHAFFIN: --of where that unit had been. We got a diary and translated that diary we had a pretty good order of battle of that--of that unit. They finally figured out we were using those to that extent and--and determining strategic advantage for us and they--they finally stopped with the diaries. We were disappointed.

LANE: How interesting. Did you find--was it tedious or was it interesting?

CHAFFIN: Huh?

LANE: Was it tedious or was it interesting?

CHAFFIN: Well, it was--it was tedious because about 90% or more of the time what youre looking for was extraneous information but when you hit a--a--a mother lode it was really worth all the effort, you know, and uh--

LANE: Thats interesting. And you were a Boulderite, is that what they called you?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, Boulder boys or Boulderites. Uh--

LANE: Because there were language schools in other places, like Harvard and--

CHAFFIN: The--the--the Army had one up at Camp Savage, Minnesota, I guess--I dont--I think that was the only other one. This school had been moved from California from Monterey, California, to Boulder after the early days of the war when the Japanese had a submarine, it was lobbing shells up on the coast and so that--that--that caused it to move the--the language school.

LANE: Get out of the way.

CHAFFIN: Into the Rocky Mountains. They couldnt quite shell it from a submarine. [both laugh]

LANE: Oh--what--tell us--uh--you were then an attorney with the Justice Department out--after you came home, is that--?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, after I came back home, yeah--uh--I was married then and had 2 children.

LANE: What--did you--tell me where you met Mrs. Chaffin

CHAFFIN: I met her--she was--she was teaching at--uh--what then was called Georgia State College for Women in Milledgeville. I think its now Georgia State College which is now co-ed. And I was--I was a 2nd year law student. I was going down to--to--uh-- Baton Rouge the spring holidays to attend an ODK convention and she was going home for spring holidays because she lived in Baton Rouge and so we met on the train. And--uh--she came back up here and--uh--I invited her up to one of those dances so--and she was a dance teacher at--uh--at GSCW in the physical education department. So--uh--we started going together and then Pearl Harbor came along and--uh--we postponed anything and we were married in--after I got my commission in the Navy in July of 1943. So, this coming July 01:02:00well be celebrating 64 years--

LANE: That is wonderful.

CHAFFIN: --of marriage and had 4 children and--uh--all of them have been University of Georgia alumni, you know.

LANE: Thats wonderful. Well, I know John--

CHAFFIN: And she was--she was pleased--she had to go back to get herself a degree so could join the Bulldog Nation. [both laugh] She got her degree back in the 1980s I think. So shes listed on the alumni records as 1982 and Im 1939, so it looks like I must have married a young--young girl.

LANE: Thats a great story. Thats a great story. I guess Ethel and John of your children, I knew. Ethel and--

CHAFFIN: Yeah, Ethel--and--and yeah.

LANE: Was in high school and then John was in our youth group later.

CHAFFIN: Thats right. We had--I just put John on the shuttle going back to Miami this morning.

LANE: Is that right?

CHAFFIN: He came up this--for Mothers Day for the weekend and--uh.

LANE: Well, what--I know youre proud of your family. Um--lets go back then 01:03:00and talk a little bit about law school.

CHAFFIN: All right. Yeah, law school was--was very small. We only had 31 or 32 students in the 1st year class. The entire student body at the law school was not over 90 and certainly not over 100 students for 3 years. Uh--that--there was--it was not much coed to it. We had one law student in each class.

LANE: One woman?

CHAFFIN: One--one woman, thats right. Uh--it just happened that way I guess but now they predominate. I think theyre at least 50% if not more and thats a good thing. And theyve been able to compete and that--that one person in our class, though, had a time getting started. She wrote a book about her travails, you know, called Benched. [both laugh] But anyway, she--uh--one--one of the great features of the law school I think was that--its honor system, you know. It was taken with pride and seriously by the whole student body. You would sign up to--to--to be faithful to the honor 01:04:00code whenyou--when you entered. You would sign each pledge--each exam with a pledge that you had not witnessed any violation of the honor code or committed any yourself and it was enforced entirely by the students. The faculty just took whatever the student--it was the student honor court that was presided over by a chief justice who was elected and each class had 2 representatives on that honor court. They--they enforced it privately and discreetly. The faculty cooperated. If a student was suspended--if that was what--if he was expelled--that was it. No questions were asked--uh, you know. But that was a--a great feature and its still a very viable part of the--of the law school there. Integral part of the law school and part of the--what we think would be the ethical training, ethical conduct of--of members of the bar. Its a good way to start them out. But--uh--Dean Hosch was quite a--he--he--he was ultimately dean there for 29 01:05:00years. He was in his about 5th or 6th year, he was a very eligible bachelor at that time, sought after. Hed gone to Harvard Law School. He--he was--had come back and been appointed. He succeeded President Caldwell as dean. President Caldwell had been the dean and became president of the university and then Dean Hosch succeeded him as--as dean and--uh--Dean Hosch--uh--had a dress code--uh--for--for the law school. You had to wear a coat and tie to all classes or any time you were on the law school premises, even though it was after class hours, you couldnt study in the library without being properly attired. And--uh--he said he wanted us to look like lawyers from the very beginning and if--if we werent--he wanted us to give the impression of--of lawyers, so thats why he had us looking--The students had a mantra. They said he was also 01:06:00a big ex--exponent of the Barristers Ball because that gave him a chance to--uh--see and be seen and to invite a lot of his guests there from Atlanta and from other faculty here on the campus and show off the law school. Wed all be in tuxes. The 1st year I was in law school we had it in the law school reading room of the library. The Barristers Ball upstairs in the law school and--uh--but, everybody was in tuxes and all--uh--dressed so--uh--the law schools had this mantra that said No coat, no tie, no FBI, no Barristers Ball, no job at all. [laughs] [inaudible] We had no placement service and, of course, back in those days I started to say we had no campus police, except Mr. Winemueller who was on his horse, he was the only campus police we had, chasing people down running across the patch with his horse. But I--I do remember as a 1st year law student trying to walk from Milledge Hall to 01:07:00the law school in January when we woke up and there was 11 inches of snow on the ground. The old timers said it was the biggest snowfall that Athens had had in 40 years, going back to the 1890s, but it paralyzed the whole campus. It was beautiful soft snow, though, but we could hardly get from Milledge Hall all the way down and across.

LANE: Well, 11 inches, thats a lot.

CHAFFIN: And coming up the hill where LeConte Hall is and Park Hall now to the law school, that field, we could hardly make it. But students took advantage of it. The Old College people, they built a 12 foot igloo right in front of Old College, the sidewalk in front of Old College facing the general library and they stayed in it and occupied it for 3 nights.

LANE: My gosh.

CHAFFIN: It was--it was quite a--quite a scene. People came and took pictures of 01:08:00it. It was 12 feet high. It had rooms in it kind of like a--[laughs] And--and one of our law students took a cue from that and so he built himself an igloo out behind the law school and invited some of his friends to spend a couple of nights with him. Dean Hosch didnt take kindly to that, though, so it didnt last very long. I think he melted it out. [laughs] But that was--was quite a snowfall and that, of course, resulted in cancellation of a lot of--lot of different events that otherwise would have--would have gone on, you know. The campus was pretty much paralyzed with snow battles and igloos all over the place.

LANE: That always happens when it snows, even if it is half an inch, you know.

CHAFFIN: Thats right.

LANE: Talk a little bit about--uh--there was the war and at the end of that time, what happened when you got home?

CHAFFIN: Well, I got home. I was married and had 2 children. Uh--I--I had been 01:09:00so far removed from the law for about 5 years, I hadnt thought about law. Law school was just a memory. I went to my dad and I said, you know, uh--if--if I went to medical school would you uh--would you help me, you know, if I switched at that stage of the game in 1946 and 1947, married and 2 children. And I was thinking that well, maybe I might as well just start off fresh in something because law was just like a memory. And he said, no. He said stick with what youve got and Ill help you there and thats when I took the--the GI Bill and went to Yale and did further graduate work in law and came out with the doctors degree from Yale law school. Thats when I got called back into the Korean War, though. I was up in New Haven as--

LANE: And they called you back in?

CHAFFIN: Uh-huh. I got called back in. Theres one other thing that I--I think would--I ought to mention. That was--uh--President Roosevelts visit to Georgia in the summer of 1938. He was--he was invited to be the commencement speaker for the summer term commencement. It was to be held in--in the--in the stadium. That was--President Roosevelt had been re-elected in 1936 and this would be the mid-term of his--of his 2nd term in the White House. Senatorial elections were coming up that fall. We had--uh--a senator from Georgia who had not been very keen on the New Deal, Senator Walter F. George, our senior senator from Georgia. He had blocked some of the New Deal measures that--uh--the President had proposed. Senator Tydings of--of Maryland was also up for 01:11:00re-election and so I think President Roosevelt had already threatened to come up there to Maryland and to speak against Tydings and try to get the people of Maryland to--to elect somebody else who would be more favorable to the New Deal. He did that. He came to Georgia and the rumor was that he was going to take off on Senator George which he did. Senator George was on the platform, Governor Rivers was on the platform, all the politicians in Georgia there, the Board of Regents, President Caldwell. And--uh--so President Roosevelt--uh--after he made his commencement address--uh--turned to Senator George and--uh--simply said lets--lets--uh--the people of Georgia deserve better. I--I need somebody in there wholl be in my camp with the New Deal and my progressive program and so he wanted us to vote for Lawrence Camp who was a federal bureaucrat, I think, 01:12:00who had a federal job but he was unknown politically in Georgia, so Lawrence Camp was--uh--Senator Georges opponent. Senator Russell was our junior senator at that time. He had not cooperated too well, either. Neither one of them had done too well over the New Deal, some of the programs. But at any rate--uh--thats--that--that stirred up--stirred up the people and Senator George responded not by criticizing President Roosevelt, but criticizing his advisors, you know, hed been misadvised and--uh--so on. He--he--Roosevelt was still popular first in the south despite that. But the--the aftermath of that was that the Board of Regents decreed that thered be no further--no more honorary degrees awarded by any unit of the University System. And that prohibition held until Jimmy Carter and Tech. Tech wanted to award Jimmy Carter 01:13:00an honorary degree and that prohibition kept them from doing that. They amended it though by saying it didnt apply if the--if the honoree had been elected president of the United States. And then 3 or 4 years later, or 3 or 4 years ago, I believe the prohibition has never been completely removed so we didnt have honorary degrees, but that--that lasted about 60 or 70 years.

LANE: I always wondered what--why they didnt--

CHAFFIN: --and that was from Presdent Roosevelt coming down here and receiving an honorary degree and--and--uh--turning on Senator George and asking people not to support him--

LANE: Embarrassing the--

CHAFFIN: --in the next election.

LANE: Thats interesting. Um--

CHAFFIN: People in Georgia never have liked this outside interference.

LANE: Dont mess with us.

CHAFFIN: [both laughing]

LANE: So--now--tell me again. You went to Yale right out of the service?

CHAFFIN: No. I--Id been teaching a couple of years in Alabama after--after I came--

LANE: Howd we let you get to Alabama?

CHAFFIN: I--I just--I had a--one of my old teachers from Georgia was on the faculty there and he said we need people desperately and--uh--that sort of appealed to me because Id kind of gotten sick of Washington and the political atmosphere of Washington, so I was making--I think I was making $4,200 in Washington. I took the Alabama job for $3,500 with a remote promise that I could teach in the summer school and maybe make the same amount of money.

LANE: Make it up.

CHAFFIN: Make it up. [laughs]

LANE: What--when you were in the Justice Department, what area did you work in?

CHAFFIN: Uh--I was--I was handling litigation--a backlog of litigation caused by World War II and--and--the paucity of personnel so I was doing a lot of--uh--trial work. I was also doing a lot of work with the--Trading With The Enemy act and that sort of thing because Id been in intelligence and that sort of fed into what I was able to do as a civilian employee at the Department of Justice. So I went straight from the Department of Justice to Tuscaloosa, 01:15:00Alabama. Started out teaching in 1947 and--uh--then went to Yale in 1950, so Id been teaching for a couple of years so--at Alabama.

LANE: And then they called you back in?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, they called me back into the--I was in the Naval reserve so they called me back into the Korean War.

LANE: Were you there for the length of the war?

CHAFFIN: Two years. I was there from 51 to 53 and I came back to Alabama and then I--I was determined to finish up my degree--uh--the JSD degree at Yale so I had to do that. I was able to get in a year of residence though.

LANE: Mm-huh.

CHAFFIN: Although I--otherwise I would have been gone at--at--at Christmastime, you know, but Yale, well they would get me deferred until the end of that year so I was able to get in that one year of residency to Yale. And then in 57 I 01:16:00came to Georgia.

LANE: And weve had you ever since.

CHAFFIN: Yeah.

LANE: And glad we have.

CHAFFIN: I came as visiting professor and Ive been visiting ever since. (Both laughing) Im still visiting.

LANE: Who was the dean of the law school when you got here?

CHAFFIN: Hosch.

LANE: Still was the dean?

CHAFFIN: J. Alton Hosch. Yeah--he--hes--uh--

LANE: Well, your field was estate taxation.

CHAFFIN: Right, federal state and gift taxation, estate planning--uh--wills, trusts, underlying--

LANE: So youre who Bill and I need to talk to when were ready to do something with our fortune.

CHAFFIN: [laughs] Thats right.

LANE: Dr. Chaffin, talk--you know, you--youve known Georgia over the years. What--what do you--what campus events throughout the years would represent the high points at the University of Georgia and maybe lets talk about the low points, too. What, as you see the change--think about the changes here and the things that have gone on. Thats--that may be not a fair question.

CHAFFIN: I guess--uh--one of the--one of the--this--I guess one of the high points--uh--from the law school standpoint, would be--would be the--uh--the expansion of the law school facilities twice: Once in 1967 when they made the major addition to the law school. Of course, that resulted in destruction of the Strahan House next door, but--uh--that was a major thing. To the credit of Dean Hosch--uh--Dean Hosch was--uh--an unusual person but I--one of his greatest accomplishments I think was--uh--the--the foundation--the creation of the Institute of Law and Government. Its now called the Institute of Continuing Legal Education but he was the creator--the person behind that in 1955 and 1956, so we got off to an early start in competition with other law schools. We were 01:18:00in the field much before a lot of law schools. And then also Dean Hosch achieved the funding for that--uh--new wing to be added to the law school and we had Justice Black come down, I believe, as the speaker for the dedication ceremony in 1967 I guess. Dean Cowan at that time was Dean, but Dean Hosch had left on a high note though of those 2 major accomplishments. Uh--he was there for 29 years. He set a record of--for deanships in the--in the country I think. But--uh--since then weve had about 6 or 7 deans. Weve had--uh--Dean Cowan came from the University of Virginia. I guess his major contribution was--uh--the development of a law review which was essential, you know, for school--student output and scholarly writings and so on. Uh--and also of--of faculty recruitment. And he was succeeded by Neal Alford, a fellow University of 01:19:00Virginia, friend of mine, from Yale days, you know. But he didnt last. He lasted 2 years unfortunately. He had some good ideas, but there was a lot of friction between him and the university administration. He left and went back to Virginia after 2 years. And then he was succeeded by Ralph Beaird. And Ralph Beaird--uh--I guess his--one of his major achievements was the bringing of the Order of the Coif chapter here to the law school. Thats the affiliate of Phi Beta Kappa in--in law--in legal education. And wed made a couple of--uh--half-hearted efforts but had not been successful but Beaird went right after it and was successful back in the 70s I guess of bringing the Order of the Coif to the--to the university. And that represents the top 10% limitation on--uh--election to membership. And then he was succeeded by Ron Ellington 01:20:00and--uh--Ron Ellington, I guess, he--he was here during the retrenchment period. He was dean for about 6 years, though. But at least he was able to secure funding to begin the construction of Rusk Hall, that was one of his major accomplishments I think was to keep things in line through a period of--of retrenchment--of salaries and so on. And--uh--have the--the foundation for the erection of Rusk Hall to commemorate--to honor President--Dean Rusk. And then--uh--he was succeeded by--uh--Ned Spurgeon. We got him from--uh--Utah--the University of Utah. But--uh--Ned had been--uh--a practicing lawyer out in California and then hed gone into teaching and had become dean. Was dean at the University of Utah, so he brought practical experience--uh--that dimension to--to the deanship. Uh, hes back at Utah now. He served for about 5 years I 01:21:00think and then was David Shipley and Shipley had a lot of experience. He had been dean at Ole Miss and also dean at Kentucky so--uh--hed been there and done that and so he had a lot of experience. He served for about 5 years. He was very strong on alumni relations. He galvanized the alumni and--uh--got a lot of support from the--for endowed chairs and fundraising for the school and now we have Rebecca White. Shes the first woman dean weve had and Rebeccas doing a fine job. She has had magnificent support from the president and provost and shes got a lot of good ideas. She has hired a lot of new faculty. Shes got some good ideas for the law school.

LANE: I think the law school--our law school has such a wonderful reputation now, that I think weve--

CHAFFIN: It does. It--it does. Its--its--its grown and--uh--weve--weve--weve supported it a lot better than, financially, 01:22:00in the last several years than weve ever had before.

LANE: Um--what are the--what accomplishment in your life, this is a tough question, what would you--are--are--blah, blah, blah. I can talk. Not articulating very well. Tell me the accomplishments of which youre most proud in your life.

CHAFFIN: Oh--

LANE: Because youve certainly had--you know, Ive got a list of things.

CHAFFIN: Oh my. Gosh--I--I--very little that I can personally take--take pride in because some of those things just happened, you know I guess--uh--I guess it would be my marriage and my family, I guess, would be the major thing.

LANE: Ill tell Mrs. Chaffin you said the right thing first.

CHAFFIN: [laughs] I guess that would be it. Weve been married for 64, almost 64 years.

LANE: That is a wonderful accomplishment.

CHAFFIN: Weve been through some good times and bad times and shes always--always been with me and--and--uh--shes had some tough times these 01:23:00last few months but--uh--shes survived those and were back with a fresh slate again, so weve taken a new approach on life and--uh--weve got the 4 children. One of them is out in--the oldest ones in Durham, North Carolina. Thats Ethel. And then Frank the son, hes a professor of landscape design at LSU. And then theres Mary. Shes a lawyer out in Portland, Oregon. Shes the only lawyer I had. She--she graduated from the law school here. Shed gone to Brown and was in Slavic studies and then came back to law school here at Georgia. Shes out in Portland. And then John, of course, is down in Miami. Hes the baby of the family. All of them have Georgia degrees--uh--

LANE: Ill tell you, raising a--raising a familys an accomplishment.

CHAFFIN: Yeah, it is. I--I--Im thankful that my father did not send me to 01:24:00medical school back in 1946 or 47 because I was about ready to do anything because here I was with really no skills that I thought I had at the time. And he said stay with where you are and Ill help you in that.

LANE: Hes a wise man. Well, I know that--um--you were appointed the universitys Fuller E. Callaway professor of law in 1969.

CHAFFIN: Right.

LANE: I know youve won a number of--of--wonderful honor--honorary-type--uh--degrees and such and then theres the Verner Chaffin Fund which gives an annual cash award--Im reading to make sure I get this right--to the UGA law student who earns the highest grade in the law schools intro judiciary law course.

CHAFFIN: Right, yeah. We also fund some scholarships--uh--out of that same pool of money. And Ethel has been instrumental in--uh--in--in creating a 01:25:00distinguished professorship that is held by Sarajane Love and thats operating and--uh--it is a deferred gift when I pass along, why Ill become a--a chair.

LANE: Thats wonderful.

CHAFFIN: Weve already set that in motion, you know, so thatll be--be augmented and increased to a chair.

LANE: So youre continuing to give.

CHAFFIN: Uh-huh.

LANE: Thats wonderful.

CHAFFIN: But--uh--thats in the field of fiduciary law, trust and estates and estate planning, and so on.

LANE: Thats wonderful. Well, I would like to say for Bills benefit that my daughter won the Verner F. Chaffin Award in 2000 and what--

CHAFFIN: She--she--she surely did.

LANE: [laughs]

CHAFFIN: Yeah, I was over there to see that.

LANE: It was wonderful to--

CHAFFIN: We go back every year for that.

LANE: Its wonderful to have you all be there for that and we were certainly proud at that ceremony. Talk--what would you like to tell us? That weve not talked about. What kinds of things would--you know, I know theres so many things that when you walk out the door I will--I probably will wish I had asked you.

CHAFFIN: I know it. Uh--

LANE: What changes, as campuses change, you--you--you were here and left in 43--

CHAFFIN: 42.

LANE: 42 and then were back, really the 1st time in 58.

CHAFFIN: Yes.

LANE: You were here during the integration of the university, Dr. Chaffin.

CHAFFIN: Thats right.

LANE: What--what reaction do you have to that time and what--

CHAFFIN: Well, Id--Id gone through a similar situation at Alabama the year before. I came here in 1955 or 56 when--

LANE: --is that Autherine Lucy at Alabama?

CHAFFIN: Autherine Lucy, yeah. And then over here. Um, well we survived and I give--I give Ernest Vandiver an old classmate lots of credit for that. Uh--at his request I spent several nights in--uh--in the dormitory where Autherine--where--where uh--Charlayne Hunter was--was--was--was housed. Just so I could report to--uh--to the governor. He was--he knew what was going on on the 01:27:00outside but there was the rioting and--and the patrol.

LANE: Were you there the night of the riot?

CHAFFIN: Yes, I was--I was in--I was in the--

LANE: In the dorm?

CHAFFIN: In the dormitory. Uh--I stayed several nights over there and--uh--and I told the house mother, I said Im coming over here now to spend some nights with you all. But, uh--and it worked out fine. Ernest--.Ernest Vandiver deserves a lot of credit for taking a statesman-like approach to that and keeping the university open and --uh--not cutting off funds and not having us run the gamut as Alabama did with standing in the schoolhouse door and--and that sort of thing. So I give him a lot of credit for that. Uh--Ive known him a long time. He was a classmate in law school. I knew him in high school. Of course, he was from Lavonia and I was up the road 17 miles in Toccoa so our paths had crossed even before we got to the university.

LANE: I think youre right. I think he did--he did the right thing. He--he 01:28:00knew what the right thing was.

CHAFFIN: I think the lowest points, of course, was the Cocking affair and--and--and also, I guess, the most disruptive thing was the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, you know, that just sent us all wondering what we were going to do and where we would be this time next year.

LANE: Yeah, it changed lives.

CHAFFIN: Changed lives.

LANE: --terrifically, didnt it.

CHAFFIN: You know, but that generation stepped up to the plate, though, and then we came back, though, and tried to get back into peacetime pursuits.

LANE: Pick up and go from there.

CHAFFIN: Pick it up.

LANE: You mentioned earlier, you mentioned Governor Vandiver. You also mentioned Mr. Bob Stephens. You had--uh--an outstanding class or--or group who--

CHAFFIN: We did.

LANE: --were in the law school. Were there others in the law school we should mention that were with you at the time.

CHAFFIN: Well, lets--back to Bob Stephens. Bob Stephens had taught many of us. He was a teaching assistant in social sciences 1, 2, and 3. That was 01:29:00required of all of us in arts and sciences and that was over there in--in--in the academic--Academic Building.

LANE: Mm-huh.

CHAFFIN: So Bob had taught some of us as--as freshmen and sophomores and then we found out later we had to compete with him in law school. [both laugh] We thought wed seen the last of him. But--uh--he and Hughes Spalding, I guess, came to law school about the same time and then they finished earlier than we did by going to summer school. Bob finished about year earlier than we did. But--uh--another one would be Bill Goddard from Gainesville. Bill was a fine trial lawyer and then he became--he was a confidant of Jimmy Carters. He was appointed to the Supreme Court of Georgia and served for several years but then he--he didnt like the ivory tower atmosphere. He wanted to get back into the real trenches, so he went back into practice. Bill and I debated against each other in high school and we also--uh--were fellow Demosthenians. uh--Sigma 01:30:00Nus and Sigma Chis and a coalition of--of independents controlled Demosthenian. Phi Kappa was controlled by--uh--uh--a group of fraternities--KA, SAE and Phi Delta Theta and a coalition of independents--so that was the political--

LANE: Thats the way it broke down, huh?

CHAFFIN: --line up in those literary societies. It was not a matter of choice for me to go into Demosthenian because the Sigma Nus had the whole pledge class going over there, so we had to go, but I enjoyed it so much and it was so beneficial. I stayed with the organization and eventually became president of Demosthenian and I learned a lot of debate and debate techniques and of public speaking and a lot about parliamentary law. It was just a tremendous--uh--experience, very rewarding.

LANE: It gave you a leg up when you started law school, didnt it?

CHAFFIN: Exactly, yeah. It was just absolutely--and the Red and Black experience was good, even though Dean Drewry cut it short, you know. That was a tremendous experience for me. I enjoyed that. And--uh--the same wy with--uh--I got into 01:31:00the Voluntary Religious Association because--uh--I just thought Id start going and it was beneficial. Mr. Eddie Segrest, called Angel Eddie [laughs], but he was--he was the director of the Voluntary Religious Association. I became--uh--head--president of the Student Christian Council. I was on the VRA cabinet and I also was editor of the G Book which is a little publication, a little booklet that--that the VRA religious association sent out to entering freshmen to acquaint them with the--with the campus, so I edited that book one summer and--

LANE: I dont know that I know anybody that took advantage as much as you have, of what was here and what was offered. Its just--

CHAFFIN: And then, as a history major, I got into international--the International Relations Club.

LANE: Yeah.

CHAFFIN: And I became president--I stuck with those things though I became president of it and--

LANE: I dont know how you had time to eat.

CHAFFIN: [laughs] And that led to a lot of other things, you know, that came along, just collaterally but I just followed my interests and the other things--

LANE: And thats what people ought to do when they come to school. And Im not sure we encourage them to-- [both talking at same time].

CHAFFIN: My primary goal was to get an education and to--to do well in the classroom and Id been instilled into that, you know, in high school and on up, you know, so that was my first priority and everything else was just, what I was interested in, it might help me along that line, you know, thats what I did.

LANE: I--I really--you--you ought to the poster boy for jumping in and getting involved and still were a summa cum laude graduate. I think thats exactly what I would encourage every student I know to do. To jump in with both feet.

CHAFFIN: And to stick with--with the organization and to contribute to it.

LANE: Right.

CHAFFIN: And--you--the student is the winner, you know. Uh--we had all kinds of clubs here but--uh--I chose some--some good clubs I think, you know, 01:33:00that--that--that helped me personally.

LANE: Right and--and on into your professional life and your career. Yeah.

CHAFFIN: Thats true.

LANE: Anything else we want to talk about today? Or are we talked out?

CHAFFIN: I wonder--lets see. If--do you have any other questions?

LANE: I dont think so. I think weve touched everything on my list. (Inaudible) That was fun. Youve had such an interesting life. Youve done such interesting things. Did you spend any time in Japan?

CHAFFIN: Yes, yeah. I did. I was--I was in Japan until--uh--the spring of 1946 I guess it was. We were frozen, the intelligence people, because we had a lot of work to do in Japan.

LANE: Couldnt leave the service--

CHAFFIN: We couldnt--couldnt leave Japan no matter how many points we had to get home. And--uh--I was working on technical intelligence. I was trying to ferret out proving grounds and weapons that the Japanese had in the development stage, you know, but had not yet been used against us.

LANE: Mm-huh.

CHAFFIN: And so we found a lot of those in proving grounds and hidden places and packaged them up and sent them back here to this country so we could figure out what they--what they--

LANE: What they were getting ready to do.

CHAFFIN: What they were getting ready to do, you know. But--uh--I think that atomic bomb, as horrible as it was on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, saved my life because I was slated to go in--uh--in the--in the fall of--uh--of 1945, you know, from Okinawa. We were already there, readying the invasion, it was going to be hell that fall.

LANE: Mr. Truman was a brave man, wasnt he?

CHAFFIN: Yeah, he was. Yeah. Hes--hes criticized for that but I think it saved lives in the long run, although it cost a lot of lives immediately, you know, in those 2 cities and I was stationed--uh--at one time--One of my keepsakes is a little saki pin that I picked up in the ruins at Hiroshima, you know. It has the heat of fusion from the atomic bomb with a lot of other things 01:35:00on it, you know, just melted onto that little saki pin. And uh--

LANE: Wed like to hope we dont have to ever do those kinds of things again and we just cant seem to stay out of trouble.

CHAFFIN: Thats--thats true--and--and--and wed--wed--well, the country was certainly committed to--to winning World War II. (Both talking at same time) You know, unconditional surrender was what Roosevelt and Churchill had talked from the very beginning, you know, unconditional surrender and--uh--that was what they insisted upon and what we got.

LANE: Yes, sir. And youre right. We havent won one since, so--Bill, you got any questions for Dr. Chaffin that we ought to [talking in background]. This has been great. Its been a lot of fun.

CHAFFIN: [laughs] Hes shutting off the machine.

LANE: We thank you so much for being with us today.

CHAFFIN: Yeah, all right.