Interview with Hattie Heflin, July 28, 2015

00:00:00Alexander Stephens: It is July 28, 2015. My name is Alexander Stephens and we're in the Richard B. Russell Special Collection Libraries building in Athens, Georgia. Could you introduce yourself please and say when and where you were born?

00:00:16Hattie Heflin: My name is Hattie Heflin, Faust-Heflin, and I was born in Oglethorpe County in a little town called Sandy Cross.

00:00:26Stephens: And when was your birthday?

00:00:28Heflin: December 5th, 1954.

00:00:31Stephens: Okay. Thanks, Ms. Heflin. To start with, I wanted to talk a little bit about your earliest years spent in Oglethorpe County. Could you share a little bit about your home there, where you grew up?

00:00:47Heflin: After I was born, we moved away, probably the first year, to Chicago. And when we moved back to Oglethorpe County, my home there was always a small, it's probably around a six-bedroom usually. There was, by that time, by the time I was born, there was eight of us. And there's a total of 11 children in my family. So, but we constantly moved a lot and I think it might have been because of space wise, but I just remember, you know, maybe every year seems like we were moving to a different area within Oglethorpe County. So by the time I was, I think maybe four, four or five, we finally moved to Comer, Georgia and that's where most of my fond memories were. So at that time, we, you know, I was old enough to, to realize that we were actually living on a farm, which we actually raised everything. There were animals, which I guess I thought were my pets. (laughs) However, they were there for other purposes. I mean, we had everything from chickens and hogs and turkeys and full gardens with all the vegetables. My father ran the farm, which, of course, at that time, he also had chitin. So chitin was the big commodity at that time. So, I remember him having workers. But little did I know that when I were a little older, I would have to learn how to pick chitin. No fun. So, in addition to that, our home was, it was nice and comfortable. At that particular house, we never owned our home, of course. We always, I assume he rented, or it was maybe part of a package deal, as I've grown and realized how sharecroppers lived at that time. But the great thing about my father, he owned all of his equipment over a period of time. So from the time that I remember being four, 'cause I remember from when I was two, but what I remember most if I may go back when I was two, after we moved back from Chicago, and I guess having that eight just seemed like such a huge number, so we had these long benches like picnic tables that was our dining room table. So it was this huge, long table and all of us had to come in and everyone had a special seat. So because I was the baby and the special one of the family, they, my brother and my sister, the older ones, would always push me off and that's what I remember most about my dad. He would always get after them and threaten to spank them for pushing me down because and they did things like that often to me because I think I was a pet of the family. But it was fun memories because my mother was a housewife so she always cooked and just cleaned and as we grew up, you know, we had to get our responsibilities and do our chores and and help out but the food just never smelled so good. And I felt that we had everything. And now when I look back, I said, I guess we could have had more, but it was everything. We never went to the grocery store, to my knowledge. And also growing up, we only left the farm that I recall, like on special holidays, or special occasions, shall I say. For example, we left the farm when it was time to go school shopping. He brought us into town, which at that time would have been Lexington, Georgia. And we would go school shopping. We always could pick out one outfit, a pair of shoes, and we, all the girls had to share like the barrettes and stuff. So, and then, so the same thing for the boys, you know. So my mother would, once we arrived into town, she would take us to ours, to wherever we shopped. And I don't recall which stores, you know, at that time. And then he would, you know, take the boys. So the next time we went into town was Christmas. And at that time, we would get fruit, even though we had some fruit trees, but we would, I would just remember being excited because the red apples was my favorite. And maybe just the smell of that fresh store-bought fruit was just totally different than picking our figs and green apples and, what uh else did we-- you know, peaches. I mean, we had, like I say, there was everything on the farm and that's, and I do miss that now. And I think the only other time that we, we will always go visit on Sunday. Sunday was family day that we went to, to church. And we were in, I've been in church ever since I can remember, you know, and what I remember most about church, I'm a member of Piney Grove Baptist Church, which is in Comer, Georgia as well. And I don't know if you're familiar about the Old Covert Bridge, that's one of the few in the state of Georgia, which is located, actually, if I'm not mistaken, it would be more or less Carlton, Philomath, somewhere right in there, but it's the Old Covert Bridge. And that's where we would go for our picnics. So the special outings would have been on Sundays after church, we would meet other family members there for a picnic. And we would go visit family, which is his sisters and they, my auntie, her oldest daughter, she and her husband owned a turkey farm and they live in Carlton, Georgia at that time. So we didn't go many places. So it was like, that's why I, growing up, it was always just sisters and brothers, I mean, we were our own family. We thought it was awesome to get visitors, because we didn't have visitors. My auntie from Chicago would come visit. There were also relatives in Atlanta, and I think Detroit that would come down, and Ohio. And of course, we still visit those places now, because that's where our family lived. We didn't really get to go visit I think because they had maybe a better life at that point, where they had money to actually come visit and we just never went anyplace, basically. I mean, home was, I guess, our castle (laughs). And my mother really instilled a lot into us. She did, finally, I went to school, I guess, around, of course, six, a little older. My birthday is December, so therefore, I started the following year. But what I remember most about that is watching my sisters and brothers grow up to go to school. So the special lunch, my mother has this recipe, and I guess everyone does, but she would make special tea cakes. And everyone would have to have one in their lunch, so I couldn't wait to get able to go to school, so I could get, of course, I could get them as a treat. But it was something special about the sack lunch. So I couldn't wait to start school, so I could get my sack lunch. And after I started school, I went to Oglethorpe Elementary School. And at that time, it was segregated, of course. And I was trying to think, I don't recall, apparently we had all Black teachers. So, but what I can share with you is the fact that prior to going to elementary school, I do remember my oldest sister, which is about fifteen years older than I am, there was a school house in the churchyard. So that's where she attended school. And as far as growing up, we also had, for a long time, we didn't have a washer machine. And I do remember, so at that time, my parents, my mother, would wash clothes on what they call a scrubbing board in a tub. So she would wash her clothes and we would hang them out, you know, on the clothesline to dry. So that was an experience, always having to get those in. And today I don't understand how our clothes were clean if you hang them outside. But that's how we were raised, we were raised. And then years later, by that time, maybe I was seven, maybe six, when we got our first washing machine. And it was still the kind that you set on the back porch, that you would have to fill with water, and they would connect the hose, fill it with water. And it had a ringer on it. So you would actually feed the clothes back through this part of the machine to wring the clothes out, get the water out of them in order to hang them out. So it was like a manual washing machine, I guess. And other things about when we, we actually grew all the years, the other years in Oglethorpe County was at, on this particular farm. So when I was finally old enough to pick chiton, which was an experience, I hated it (laughs) because it was sticky, it was hot, and you were just out there forever. And then I remember most of my years when I first started going to the field, I would have to, they would only leave me out a little while and then they would put me under this little tent that they would have out there. So as I got older, I was actually required to wear my burlap sack to pick, to you know to pick the chiton. And then I was as I became older and you can realize I'm only probably seven or eight by this time then I'm having to actually supposed to pick a bale of chiton or expect it to pick a bale of chiton because for some reason we didn't have as many workers when, I maybe because when the kids were all younger he had more farm hands. And I one of the scariest memories I have an ex-con had escaped one time and the house was like, it wasn't a row house but it was really long and I, it was my turn to do the dishes which was on the very back of the house and he was in the kitchen when I went down the hallway to, to wash dishes. So I was screaming and he was screaming and he grabs the food, you know, like potatoes and biscuits and he run out of the back door. And during that time, you never locked your doors I mean, we never closed our doors. And even we slept with our doors open, reason being probably because there was no air conditioning. So, but that was just my, one of the, probably the most scariest, 'cause it was just a stranger. At that, I didn't know the difference between, you know, him being dangerous or if he would have been dangerous. So at that time, I made sure I washed my dishes on time and I waited till late night because we were all retrieved to the front of the house and that was family time. So--

00:13:04Stephens: --How did you know he had escaped from a jail?

00:13:06Heflin: Because he had on the striped and apparently there probably was some shackles, you know, I just remember this black and white stripe and obviously there had to be on his hands or something to let me know that he was an escaped prisoner.

00:13:25Stephens: Do you remember what he looked like?

00:13:26Heflin: He wasn't African-American. He--I don't--facial-wise, I mean, he just--I don't remember--because it was just like--the time I entered the kitchen, you know, he just grabbed his food and exited.

00:13:44Stephens: No, I was just curious.

00:13:46Heflin: Yeah, I don't--no, I don't recall him looking--evil or--mean. I think--I don't know. I wouldn't know how to describe him.

00:14:00Stephens: It sounds like he got scared by you, too.

00:14:02Heflin: I think so. But yeah, that was really surprising, and that was probably one of my scariest moments, I think. It had to have been. I don't recall. But after that moment, I made sure that I you know, never went back that way. And today I think about how dangerous that would have been if that would happen today. So in addition to that, we had an oak grove there at that particular home and which meant there were actually rock tables, you know, it was just a huge picnic area in the front. And that was the most beautiful part about that particular farm house. My other experience living on the farm, we had to do this thing called banking potatoes. So that was one of my favorite things to do. And what we did at the end of the season, we would bank the sweet potatoes where it's like a mound of dirt that he would build and we would store the potatoes inside of it. And that's where that they were good throughout the year. Of course, we had chickens, so I had to gather eggs. And my father also had a syrup mill, and it was like way off in the pasture area so he would make our syrup. So one of our favorite meals would be biscuits, hot biscuits, syrup, fatback, and that was probably more or less in salmon, canned salmon, pink salmon. And that would probably be like breakfast. And then dinner would be, of course, fried chicken. And they would kill the hogs you know, there were always a season where they would kill the hogs. And that was my bad experience. So my sister, as I said, they would constantly get me to do things because I was the baby, and they thought my dad would let me do things and I didn't know any better. Well, she sends me, we had a smokehouse, this is where they store all the meat after they kill the hog. Well, after that particular ordeal she sends me out and says, "Go out and get some meat skins for me they're in the smokehouse." She gives me specific directions as to where to go she says, "Open the door and go to your left and the first can put your hand in there and get some skins,"--they were always delicious-- it was scalding hot grease in the first can on the left, that was a horrible experience. So that's my sister that's older than me and we're really close but I'm now beginning to think that she really was just doing things because of because I was little didn't know any better but it was still fun even though I wasn't scarred by it. But the hogs the gathering food out of the garden freezing food or blanching and storing preparation for the winter my mother would spend hours and hours in the kitchen after we had picked the beans and peas and I really regret that I didn't learn how to properly do those things--because I--the process that she went through was, it was just awesome, just to see her go through how you have to blanch them and bag them and I helped but I never took the interest and I think because it was so much work then, I just found lack of interest to continue that but as I've grown I regret her insisting that we learn that process because today is what we did then is what factories do today and that's what I found amazing. So we were really skillful people. I mean I think that that's what's so amazing about African-Americans. We have and that's my motto actually. We've just done so much until--we're just so capable--this is just how I feel. And I just look back over where she came from and how much she endured and how much she actually did and that was just the amazing part about my childhood. So I get to the point where I'm in school--after I started school, and that was in 1960, roughly, and the teachers there, they were what I recall most about school--and not being prepared prior to going to school is what I noticed--because the teachers there, they taught you as if you were prepared. But at that time, I don't think they had kindergarten, we didn't attend kindergarten prior to going to school, so we didn't have that hands up. And I think because being raised on the farm, that is where you get off to a slower start of learning. But it wasn't long before you caught up, because they had rulers and they had paddles that they would literally spank you or pop you if you did not learn. So what I remember was when I started to school, the hardest thing that I had to learn was, which that my--I had a first and last name--if that makes sense. For example, I--today you would probably say that it was just not practice--because I would always write my name backwards. So I wonder like, okay, but after she popped me two or three times, I got that right very quickly. (laughs) And after that, I really enjoyed learning and I would really cry not to go to school. And what happened, my father would always keep my brothers out of school when it was time to farm. So when it was time to complete projects that they were behind on, every once in a while he would keep the girls out of school. His motto was that girls needed to go and get their education, where boys would grow up to be manual laborers or farmers or they really did not need as much education as the girls. So that was his idea or his philosophy about who went to school, you know, if I needed help on the farm. So one day, I remember he tried to keep me out of school--and he requested it, shall I say, because he succeeded--but I was trying to slip off and go to school. So I went through the back of the house to go out to catch the bus, even though he had instructed us that we were not attending school that day because we had to do potatoes. And I--I think I cried so much he never kept me out of school again because he didn't get any work done that day. But that was just one of the things I hated was missing school----but we had a lot--

00:22:15Stephens: Why?

00:22:16Heflin: --Why did I hate missing school? Because it was an opportunity. I think I'm just such an--now I know I'm an analytical person. I just want to know. And once I'm--it was almost like a hunger almost--and maybe because I had not experienced that. And another thing that I didn't--a point I didn't bring up, in our home, growing up, there was only one television. And that television was for adults. Children only watched maybe a piece of the news, there might've been a cartoon every once in a while. But what I remember most as young was the news and Ed Sullivan's show. You know, that was it. We had to of course we either went out and played or we had our toys. But apparently we didn't have very many books in the home. So but my sister--my older sisters--were more advocate readers, I think so whatever it was be it the newspaper or magazines and of course most of the time it was just magazines that maybe come in the mail. So and once I had the opportunity to go to school I just wanted to kind of be there. So learning was the first thing and being around other kids was the second thing because as I said we really did not go out. That's why I said I was really raised more conservative, I guess, more so we weren't really allowed to play with certain kids. We weren't allowed to do a lot of the normal things and as I moved through school I wasn't allowed to stay after school, you know, so we had a set of strict rules that we had to go by, but elementary school was fun I--and the bus, riding the bus was an experience that I didn't enjoy very much--

00:24:12Stephens: --Why is that?

00:24:13Heflin: It was just because, it was the bus I think, I didn't have a real reason and I tell you I think, if I had to give your reason, it would because I always was--the bus drivers knew that if you did not act a certain way, they would tell your parents (laughs) so therefore that was my playtime. One time I actually, they told my mom that I wasn't obedient on the bus. So after that I never liked the bus so it was nothing serious. But that was the only form of transportation at that time. My parents didn't take us to school so I had no choice and probably the second reason was because we had to get up so early to catch the bus.

00:25:00Stephens: Was it a long ride?

00:25:02Heflin: It was not that long. It was from what I guess Comer to Lexington. So maybe it was less than maybe thirty, forty, probably forty minutes. So I guess it wasn't maybe that long.

00:25:17Stephens: Long for a little kid.

00:25:18Heflin: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And also the other thing was because I was really, as I said, I was a loner. And where I fit in the eleven, in the lineup, I didn't have a sister to be with. I had an older brother and then I had younger brothers. So I just didn't fit in. And in addition to that, I really didn't fit in with the kids I was in school with either. And it was simple reasons because my mother had instilled a lot of pride in us. She had instilled, we knew how to speak, we knew how to, to behave. We knew we just, we were just raised a certain way. And I just felt, I felt out--I felt on the outside most of the time with the younger kids because they would--they were either--not paying attention and they were either--and I just really felt that way for some reason. And maybe because I was more quiet because I knew that I had to be, you know, I had to act a certain way when I left home. But I tell you what, what is amazing to me is that--even there was segregation, I did not know the difference--between, I guess, between the Jim Crow movement. The only thing that I recall my parents telling me about was, was in 1950, I believe, they talked more about food being rationed and that part of their life. They never talked about slavery, they never used the term slavery. And, for example, my father's family is from Oglethorpe County--well, they both are from there, but--

00:27:30Stephens: --The Fausts?

00:27:31Heflin: --The Fausts. And the Faust actually is a German name. So, my mother's is actually a Kennebrew and her father, her father's father, and I know everyone say this, but this is fact, he was full-blooded Cherokee. My grandfather, which is her father, but he was living in Chicago, so I never met my mother's grandfather. I knew briefly of my mother's father, which he actually looked like--an Indian--But he passed when I was in the tenth grade and he was in Chicago at that time as well. So because I was so young, I hear my sisters talk about him a lot. So that's why they actually moved when I mentioned that they had moved to Chicago at an early age. And I didn't expand on the fact that the reason they moved back is because they found life to be harder there. And that was the way of life, per se, meaning that there was so many, they had eight children at that time. So my mother said that she felt that raising children in the city was harder than raising children on the farm or here because we could actually play. She literally would have to sit outside to watch us on the playground, where my auntie would just let her kids go outside. So that's kind of the example as to why we were raised differently, and that's pretty much why. And my father said that he couldn't actually get, I guess, maybe a good job. So all he probably knew was farming, so that's why. So they moved back because of that.

00:29:29Stephens: I'm curious about your, you mentioned particularly your mother instilling a sense of pride in you and your siblings. What do you mean by that? Or how did she do that?

00:29:41Heflin: It was, you know, I think when parents kind of leave a little bit of them in you, it was basically, it wasn't just, it wasn't just teaching us manners per se. It was the fact that we were more--she actually treated each one of us like we were royalty--We never knew we didn't have what everyone else had. So the way that she went about it, we never knew and maybe it was because we didn't know, they took-- I guess the--all the negativeness out of life. You know, they just tried to show us all the positive side of life.

00:30:35Stephens: Do you think they protected you?

00:30:36Heflin: --Exactly, and that's what parents do, you know, and I do that all the time now, except not only did they protect us, they shielded us. And so, with that being said, that's when I was like, oh, I must have been naive to the past, but it wasn't a bad thing. It's almost like maybe that was her, I guess, mechanism to move through all that she had to endure, so I never understood. And, for example, we were--and I was probably--let's see, if I started school at six, I think I was maybe six, we went to the dentist around that time. So Dr. Dubose, it was in Lexington, and I went--we were at the dentist--so I got out of the car last, for some reason, probably having to put my shoes on or something. So I go, I enter, and of course there was a sign that said white, and there was a sign that said colored. I never knew the difference, it meant to me white is a color. You know, maybe I was naive again, but it's just the fact that it meant nothing to me. So therefore, I was thirsty, so I drank out of the water fountain that said white. I never considered myself, number one, as being colored. My mother never told me I was colored. So therefore--I think we were just kinda--it was in the middle--it was the way life's supposed to be, I mean, we were no different than anyone else. So I then entered the front door, but at that time, when I was six, that was like 1960, '61, I guess, well, it was '76, so around 1960, and Kennedy was president at that time. So, I was sitting there, and I just noticed there was a glass between the two rooms, and I'm thinking, "Where are my mom and my sisters and brothers?" So, the people in the waiting room, they spoke, you know, cordially, and I just smile, because that's what I do. And I looked up, and my mother was in the-- My brother was pointing, like, "There is--" They call me Sue. So, "There's Sue." And I look, and she was, like, frantically saying, you know, "Come around the building." And I'm thinking, "Why?" So, I get up, and I leave out, and I go around the building. And she still didn't tell me why I needed to come around the building. So, things like that. It was --and I don't know why she chose to do it that way--and that was just one of the experiences of later, knowing that that was, you know, all about slavery and, you know, and Blacks was second-class citizens and things of that nature. And I tell you something else that I wanted to mention, on my birth certificate, it actually says that I was born colored--That's what's on my birth certificate--And I looked at it one day, and I'm thinking, "Hmm, we all are color." You know, we all are, we're a colorful group of people. So then, so with that being said, back to your question, she instilled just a sense of pride. And that's what I saw in her. So she was always a prideful woman up until her death, I mean, that's what I saw. And it was almost like she would not lose her dignity out of all the surgeries that she went through, her illnesses. She never, um, it was, it was, it was hurtful to see the fact that she never wanted to let go of the person that she was. And I tell you--I'm going to jump forward briefly--I was asked one day, "Why do you walk with your head up?" And I said, "Excuse me?" And it also made me remember what I experienced doing first, doing second, from second grade all the way through seventh, eighth grade. People would always ask me questions such as that. Why do you talk the way that you do? Why do you walk the way that you do? Why do you hold your head up? And I knew nothing but to present myself in that way. So my answer--this was at work one day--my answer to my co-worker was, "I have no reason to look down." So I will always--and it followed up with some more statements--But later, she told me that her mother had raised her to be prejudiced, and I was the only Black person that she had ever had an opportunity to get to know. I can respect her for that. But more on the funny side, when I was little, coming through class, I would leave the classroom--We had to change classes where we had to go to different classes--So I would leave the classroom and all the kids in the hallway--when I said that I felt isolated--They would always say, look at her, she thinks that she's so pretty, she's always walking a certain way. Well, when I entered Burney Harris Lyon, that was, well, I'm gonna bring you back up quickly. After leaving Oglethorpe Elementary, I was third grade. After leaving-I was fourth, excuse me, I just entered fourth, so after, finished fourth--So after leaving there, I came to Athens. We moved to Athens, and--

00:36:48Stephens: --Do you know why your family decided to move to Athens?

00:36:52Heflin: Yes. At that point, I think I was told that after my father returned back to farm again, farming wasn't as successful. What I saw happen was unraveling, but what I realize now, it had a lot to do with how the world was changing. And if I may step back, my oldest brother, when he graduated high school, he left immediately and went to the military, and he fought in Vietnam War, and he was stationed in Okinawa. So during that time, too, my mother couldn't contact him the way she wanted to or reach out to him because, you know, she was required to be there for everyone else. And then my oldest sister graduated high school, and I remember her begging my father to let her go to college, you know, and I'm just little at this time. And that's when he was saying, no, you know, you don't need to go to college. You know, you need to get go, you'll get married and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So, my other brothers at that time, they were, maybe two, I think the majority of all my brothers probably eventually graduated high school. Of course, we moved to Athens and you know, my father was kind of in and out. So he became ill soon after then with cancer and all of that, you know, as I know it now could have been other things going on with him that was causing him to change. So I attended East--I attended North Athens Elementary School at that time--so my favorite subject then was science. I've always loved science and after then, my next--after completing school there--I went to Lyons Middle School for like three years I believe. So that was a great experience, that's where I played basketball, so I'm pretty athletic. I did enjoy that. The only thing about that, there was still a lot of kids--you know, of us. So I couldn't stay after school and practice. My mom, you know, there was only one car and, you know, for my father, he was always in and out by that time. So, you know, so if she could pick us up, but she always made sure that we had what we needed. And we always participated in as much as possible, but however, understanding the fact that if I couldn't get a ride home, that I couldn't participate. So I didn't become a basketball star. However, after Lyons--

00:39:40Stephens: --Where did y'all live at that point?

00:39:42Heflin: We lived on Danielsville Road in Athens, which is, yeah, it's just called Danielsville Road off of--

00:39:50Stephens: --Across the North Avenue Bridge.

00:39:52Heflin: --Exactly, exactly is I tell you it's what's there now you pass DFACS and you pass you go straight out--what is it there's a major building out there now--the fire department where the new fire department is that's where I lived and the amazing part growing up we did not have inside toilets. We did not have running water and that's what's in Oglethorpe County. So even when we moved to Athens right there on Danielsville Road, there was still no inside toilet, there was still no running water. So my neighbors had a well so we would have to actually go and draw water from the well and it wasn't very far maybe the distance you know maybe what a block or something like that so that we would actually have to we had the little buckets that we would draw the fresh water and bring it back home. And at that time we were still doing tub baths we would have to bring water to store to cook so there's where I learned to cook was there and we were there a few years. I actually when we went to Burney-Harris High School, Burney-Harris, it was just called Burney-Harris because it wasn't it was between middle--it was the transition at that time this was in 1970--

00:41:26Stephens: --So the junior high--

00:41:27Heflin: --Junior high yes, okay, so middle school then to junior high that's exactly what it was. So I went to junior high at Burney-Harris and that too was all Black, so we were the last class prior to desegregation because that was in '69, I guess coming into the 70s. And at that time I still was surprised to find--my peers--to find that the way that I spoke was strange. We had Black history; that was the only Black history class I recall ever having, and I wish they had more of those. But we did have Black history, and we had to do newspaper articles. And it was always like, "Oh, it's time for Miss Pretty to read or Miss Proper to read." And for a long time, I think it took a while for them to realize that speaking English, proper English is not proper. So there is ways to experience, I guess, prejudicedness, in different ways, because it was always like, "Oh, she thinks she's white," and this is from my peers or "Oh, she's trying to talk white." But this is, you'd be amazed as to the mindset of people from then. So, in relating back to your question as to what my mother instilled in us, and she would always, you know, tell us, and I think it's all about at home, as to what is instilled in you at a young age, as to where you go, what you do, what your dreams are. So that was just something bigger than big. And after junior high, we actually went to Clarke Central, we were all signed up to go to Clarke Central. And even at that time, believe it or not, I did not know that Clarke Central was a white school because there was never a difference between Black and white. So, I was just going to Clarke Central. And actually, when I entered Clarke Central, there was certain groups that you would see gathered in certain areas that didn't want to associate with the Black kids. So, I'm thinking that apparently Cedar Shoals open the same year or the next year because I remember my few friends that I had went to Clarke Central with me, but then they left, so I was left with only one friend at Clarke Central. I never experienced any negativeness there. I think the--it was just separate groups still--you know, people would eat lunch by themselves or they would participate in certain sports. Well, at that time, I guess that's when sports became really huge because you had more talent that came into the school at that time. So with me being just a number in the crowd, you know, the largest student body at that time, which I don't recall what that number was. But it was--At that time, too, Athens Tech was accepting students to do the--what was it called? The--

00:45:12Stephens: --Joint enrollment?

00:45:13Heflin: Yeah, more--

00:45:14Stephens: Could you get credit--

00:45:15Heflin: Exactly, exactly.

00:45:16Stephens: --at Athens Tech while you were--

00:45:19Heflin: --Mm-hmm. So, several of my friends went there to do joint enrollment, where I stayed at Central, they would go a half day, and they would get to go to Athens Tech. I would go a half day, And I-- this was like more eleventh grade, I would go to work. So, it was a program that they had at that time, though, where you could--that was counted as a credit. So, at that time, I was attending Central, and I enjoyed my experience there. I didn't have a bad experience at Clarke Central. In the eleventh grade, I was--I was part of the Miss Clarke Central Beauty Pageant, and I keep relating back to my mom because even then, and prior to then, any occasions-- middle school prom, for example--even though she didn't allow us to date--but she would try to say, "Okay, if you really want to go, you can only go your last year," and she actually would go and take me to the finest stores to buy my special occasion dress and I think she's always done that. And that, as I look back, surprised me. How could she actually--not only afford it--but how could she go that extra mile to make sure that we experienced, had the experience of our life at that point? So she took me to Abrams, downtown, which is,--it was on Clayton--and she took me to Abrams, and that was an expensive dress shop, and that's where I remember she bought my prom dress. And then for the Clarke Central Beauty Pageant, she made sure that she took me to the best hair salon to get my hair done. And I'm not really sure where that particular dress, maybe Joanne's, that was another popular dress shop in town. I think because she always wanted the best for her, so she wanted the best for us. And she would always tell me how pretty I was, you know, and I would think that, well, the main thing was she always thought I had pretty legs because they were always skinny then, and today I wish for them. But those are the things that she did, you know, to me. And going back when I was in elementary school, I was always active, I always wanted to be active and I think that's where I fit--I find myself--placing myself in part of society was because I never felt that I didn't belong, that I couldn't do something or that I shouldn't do something. And I think that part was, she felt that that was, I was a little too outgoing to--because she made a statement that she wouldn't raise me in Chicago--and it was something that she saw in me that I think I maybe didn't know that was in myself. But what I do know is that I am that prideful person, I live by that. It's just the principles that she instilled in us. And that's how I think we came through. And this is how we will survive, you know, the things that we're faced with today. But after--

00:48:51Stephens: --Can I--sorry--

00:48:51Heflin: --Yes.

00:48:52Stephens: --Can I go back to--the desegregation of Clarke Central a little bit? Because it's interesting that, you know, you note that you didn't have many negative experiences there. And I've heard some similar things, but there was some tension, right? Before the desegregation, there was a walkout from Burney-Harris.

00:49:13Heflin: Exactly, exactly.

00:49:15Stephens: Were you the first class at Clarke Central?

00:49:17Heflin: Yes.

00:49:18Stephens: So do you remember any of that tension at the time?

00:49:21Heflin: I remember the Burney-Harris one, and I remember actually walking off campus, myself, scared to leave, because I wasn't scared of what they were marching for. I was scared that my mom was going to (laughs) actually probably get me because I left school, so that's what I'm saying. And a lot of what I didn't participate in or didn't see, shall I say, I didn't see it through those eyes because I was more of afraid, I guess--I was afraid of my mom--not of anything else. And that's kind of amazing. But yeah, the walk-off campus--

00:50:04Stephens: What was that about? What do you remember that being about?

00:50:09Heflin: I'm trying to think. That was in '70.

00:50:13Stephens: In the spring of '70.

00:50:15Heflin: So that meant that Kennedy was already assassinated.

00:50:21Stephens: Do you remember people around school talking about it?

00:50:27Heflin: I remember--it was more of a Black Power March at that time. So I'm trying to think what was the issues in 1970 that was going on?

00:50:44Stephens: What I've heard is just that there were there was frustration about the way desegregation was being carried out in Athens as far as what was gonna happen to different teachers and the sports teams and the coaches and that sort of thing.

00:50:59Heflin: And you know, and I'm positive because we were having to transition. So obviously it had to be desegregation. And it was a very small--that particular day that I walked off--It was a very small group. But again, it was only about, I think it was more perception, but I think it was anger because of the fact that maybe it wasn't a choice at that time. But I don't really recall. It wasn't and it was with the students, it was very peaceful. Now once we entered Clarke Central, I don't, as I say, there were separate groups, but I don't recall what actually transitioned with that particular transition.

00:52:00Stephens: Sure. What about some of the teachers there? Do you have any favorite teachers, memories of teachers from either Burney-Harris or Clarke Central?

00:52:12Heflin: Burney-Harris, it would probably have to be my—Mr. Jensen was my math teacher--and 'cause I still see him today and Mrs. King was my Black history teacher, so she would be my most favorite teacher, because that tells me today that she understood me. And she tried to teach us where we came from versus where we were going--so that was just my favorite teacher. Clarke Central--Clarke Central--who was my favorite teacher there? I don't think I really had a favorite. I think that--I don't know in middle, Mrs. Geary was my favorite 'cause that was science. So it was more or less my favorite subjects. I think Dr.--was it Holman or Hawkins?--I think he was history. And Dr.--I think they were more or less my history teachers--And geography was my favorite subject in high school. Actually, that was the class that I didn't attend. So when it was the walkout, and I was just hesitant about, because I had loved school so much about leaving. But I really didn't have the most favorite, I think.

00:53:59Stephens: Any negative experiences with teachers--tat you wanna share, I guess?

00:54:05Heflin: Well, it's just the fact that I would definitely share them--it was all more of a personal thing, and I think it was truly a problem, problem with some,--and that's why I really wanted to search myself, because I don't want--I really think that I had my own coping mechanism, and my thing was to--I was probably in a lot of areas being discriminated against and didn't know it because--I was there for a purpose, and one, the first purpose probably was to make sure, even as a young, you know, a teenager, I still, you know, feared my mom. That wasn't what she sent us to school to do. So, and I don't mean to, to paint it a different color, but it was just the fact that--Personally, I had another favorite teacher, that was Mrs. Mitchell--And I think my favorite teachers became the ones who saw potential in me. I just do, I recall that maybe a couple of classes, the teachers were not as attentive in whether you learned or understanding whether you were even prepared. Because, obviously, I would think that coming into Clarke Central, that the level of students at Clarke Central probably was, or a great percentage of them, was probably well more prepared than we were coming in, and we weren't--I don't think that ever was a concern of some of the teachers--So that would probably be the only negative thing, but one particular teacher over another, obviously, and it may have also been my views, because I'm thinking, you know, these are white teachers, and I never sat--I've never been instructed, you know, by a white teacher before-- That never crossed my mind, but it definitely crossed my mind when I wasn't getting it. You know, if I wasn't getting it, you know, I'm thinking at that point, I think it was more or less, I'm thinking it's me. But then once I think about it, obviously it would have been the way in which, at the level in which I came into that school or, for example, you could be probably at Burney Harris. I was probably a B student, but I remember failing a class at Clarke Central. There was probably more C's than ever. So, but there again, it was, I felt that it was more me, maybe because I was not as, as vocal, I didn't participate, you know, on the level because I was always just quiet and reserved. So, and I'm sure I could have studied harder too because at that point it wasn't the farm, you know, there was no excuses. You wasn't, you know, having to go home to do that. But, one thing for sure, it was the fact that, and this holds true today, in order to be a great student, everything goes back to home. So, even though we no longer lived on the farm, our responsibilities did not change. At that point, you know, it was a single parent household. My mother, you know, worked as much as possible. Actually, during that time, my mother worked at the Varsity here and so she cooked at the Varsity, and prior to actually moving, she took a lot of small jobs at, you know, ironing and, you know, washing--And even though she was a housewife--but I'm sure she did a lot of that in order to make do. I do recall when she told me about a time when we were living in Oglethorpe County, and I guess she had taken a job with a lady to clean her house and this was still after the move back, and she would walk the same forty minutes, well probably, she walked maybe an hour and a half, maybe an hour, it's from Oglethorpe County to Athens. She literally walked, and I--we only had the one vehicle, it was a truck at that time-- so she would literally, maybe she didn't walk to Athens, but it was to a store, it was a grocery store at that time. But she would walk anywhere from forty minutes from different jobs to, and back home, just to make that extra income. And she shared things like, she would say, well, you know, one time she really was,--this was more from a testimony point of view--where she would testify to the fact that some days, you know, she really didn't know where, you know, her bill money was coming from or where their food was coming from. But that was only in testimony, not that we never knew that, you know, whether she was struggling. And the word poor? never, we never knew we were poor. My sisters that we laugh about it now, we never knew that we were poor or how you classify socially. You know, we actually was, you know, a poor family at that time, but we never knew that. And I think that's another way that she shielded us and protected us. So, and that's how our outlook is where it is today and how we worked hard to move forward. But also, I wanted to go back and touch on the fact that we did not have running water or bathrooms until probably the 70s, let's say. Because, and that's when, you know, when public housing, when the, after the Civil Rights and the movement and then the public housing bill was passed, we actually, from, from Danielsville Road, it was 129 Danielsville Road--I never forget--that's where we lived and we moved to then Bethel Church Homes--which is now the Bethel Homes--but it was first built--

01:00:44Stephens: --Downtown.

01:00:45Heflin: --Downtown. And they had the train explosion right before, when it was first built on Horton Street, where Counsel on Aging is, that area. So we could smell the smoke and see the smoke all the way out there. So shortly after then, when they started rebuilding, we moved there, and that was the first indoor plumbing that we had. But at the same time, you know, we felt like we still had it all, even though when I think about it, not to have indoor plumbing and water until then, that was amazing. So, and even now with Bethel Home being considered, um, I assume it's 'cause, it is public housing, but I don't know whether it was categorized as, projects--they weren't categorized as the main projects here. So, and actually, that's where I lived until I graduated high school.

01:01:50Stephens: So you, you, well, did you want to talk any more about the Miss Clarke Central pageant? Because you, the way you looked when you mentioned that, I thought you might want to say something.

01:01:59Heflin: I do, because that was, that was an eye opener. You had maybe three Blacks --I would do better-- I'll say there was maybe a total--there was an elimination process--so maybe when we started off, there was maybe six or seven. So by the time we did the elimination process, there was probably two and we had like the runner ups. So I was probably in the top ten runner ups. I still remember, Terri--who won the pageant, I don't remember her last name--but she was a beautiful white girl, she was very friendly. But when it first started, there was really a lot of tension because when--it was never said directly, but just like, you know, why are they part-- 'Cause the student body had to vote--so that's how the contestants became part of the pageant. So I don't, it was still a large number, but other than the tension of that particular pageant, that was the first time that I think we were looked at as an equal. And along with that, I also wondered how Terri won the pageant, because there was, I mean, I felt like I should have won the pageant. That was, I mean, it was just out of the ones that was chosen, Terri--don't even know what her talent was at that time--but based on answering the question that we were asked at that time, I'm thinking to myself, "You know, gee, I thought I was gonna at least be, you know, one of the three contestants," but I was happy that Terri won. I mean, we had the--We were all in the newspaper-- so that was a proud moment for me. So that was, I think, a big thing for Clarke Central. Now, one thing I will say, and there's not a reason for this, Clarke Central has never had a segregated prom. For some reason, just within the past ten years--because I remember some of my classmates saying they actually got invited--but every year that Clarke Central, the white students have their prom, the prom is always pre-planned at the time that they invite us to participate. But that's not anything negative, because the Black students of Clarke Central, student body of Clarke Central, has never invited the white students to participate in the prom. So I think what happened was, whoever the class president was, you know, during those years, and they just never came together to say, why don't we have a prom together? Now, our acting class president, you know, tells me that--

01:05:28Stephens: --Are you talking--I'm sorry, just to clarify, are you talking about reunions, class reunions?

01:05:33Heflin: Yes, class reunions. Well, I said prom, excuse me, I'm sorry. I do apologize.--(laughs)

01:05:36Stephens: I was thinking I went to a desegregated prom. (laughs)

01:05:39Heflin: But, actually, I did not go to my high school prom. I don't remember why I chose not to, but I didn't. But yes, thanks for correcting me.

01:05:46Stephens: Okay, just checking.

01:05:48Heflin: The class reunion, so that was my point--

01:05:51Stephens: --Has always been segregated for your class?

01:05:54Heflin: No.

01:05:54Stephens: Oh.

01:05:55Heflin: I mean, yes, yes. I don't recall--even though I don't participate in all of them--but the last one that I participated in, I suggested, actually, I'm the secretary, so I was requested to send out an announcement. I sent it out to everyone that I had in my computer. So at the meeting, I was really attacked because, or approached, shall I say, "Why did you send it to X, Y, and Z?" I didn't know they were Black or white. And this was just from a few people saying, well, they never invite us. And I'm thinking, hello, this is 2000--well, when we did it, I think it was '13, '14, but I don't, I don't know, uh, why, but I think the reason is because when Clarke Central did the first class reunion, they probably did reach out and no one came, not for prejudice reasons. I just think that they, for example, I don't participate in all the class reunions, so I'm just thinking for some reason because no one came to the first one, that's why. But now the announcements are out and I think it's just your preference as to whether you go. But I do--and again, I'm just trying to stress that I know this has nothing to do with desegregation--but I just hope that we maybe plan our last class reunion where we all would just do one big class reunion.

01:07:42Stephens: So you graduated from Clarke Central in 1973?

01:07:45Heflin: Yes.

01:07:46Stephens: And then what did you do after that?

01:07:50Heflin: After I graduated from Clarke Central, I enrolled in an online program for accounting. And at that time we were, as I said, was still living in Bethel Homes. So Action Corporation, Boys and Girls Club, Action. They were housed as part of that project of Bethel Homes--Church Homes--So they were downstairs. So first I started volunteering and after that I took a--I went to Athens Tech-- and I was going to Athens Tech to do business education. So I also started working at, some of my small jobs were Bell's Food Market, McDonald's on Prince Avenue--and I was shocked to hear that when that McDonald's opened, they refused to be segregated--So at the time, again, I did not, um, I was not aware that the businesses, I guess, there were still segregated businesses. So I just immediately decided where I was going to work. And I went and I applied, but I, you know, there's some, I didn't, probably some of the places I didn't get a job, but I did work there. Then I started working at General Times, West Clock. And I worked there for a little while, but then I became ill--coming in contact with someone with meningitis at that time. So I did not, um, complete my accounting course on online. So because of that, what happened, I went to volunteer with Action and through Action, I got hired at--applied and was hired with Clarke County Health Department--so today still make me understand as I look back why promotions were the way they were, why the salary was so low, the hourly wages were so low during that time. But I started working with the Health Department in 19--actually it was still in '73--however it was in September of '73 when I was hired there. And I was hired with the WIC program and I continued to work there. During that time is when I wrote in UGA, I applied, shall I say. I applied to UGA and that was in '70--that was actually, I came to Clarke County full time--Let me back up. What I did was when I was employed, but I worked for the Northeast Health District and the Northeast Health District is the district office for our region, our health department district. So through that, I worked the ten counties in our district here and I would travel and I did basic health education and home visits and clerical. So that's what I did with the WIC program where we actually go to the health departments and issue WIC vouchers and assess clients for their eligibility and then I would deliver vouchers in some of the rural areas in the counties. So after I did that for a while then in 1980--in prior to 1980--I also had to go back one summer and finish my business education semester because I did that for probably something I was doing with work. So in 1980, I was pregnant with my first child. So I came back to Clarke County full time and didn't continue to work the rural area. In which, in '82, around '82 was when I probably applied to UGA and I was accepted, I didn't attend because lots of reasons. It was just--UGA was so huge and I was like, "Baxter Street was so small,"-- (laughs) and I just felt like I couldn't get the class on time. That was my greatest fear, You know, I would never make it to class on time having to walk across campus. So reasons such as that, but another thing that my mom would say to me after I had my daughter, I was constantly and I'm still a professional student. I mean I was I'm always in and out of school taking classes So I have a whole lot of classes under my belt, but at that time I would say, you know, I want to go and that was the third reason I want to go to UGA, "Will you keep my daughter?" And of course her thing was, "No you should have finished school prior to getting pregnant." So that was my mother (laughs) so those so I always kind of worked it around worked around my kids and I was always--I left work for a short period of time and went to Ohio in which I wanted to transfer my job because I wanted to move so during that time again for some reason after a few months my mother insisted--She insisted that I, you know, this was again before my daughter was born--so that I should return here and I also signed up for the service. I joined the army. I went and almost enlisted actually. I went through the entire thing because I wanted to, I wasn't running away, I was actually slipping away. My mother did not want--and again, you know, I'm a young adult-- but she did not want me to be in the military because still my brother was away. So being a single parent and being a parent myself today, I kind of understand where she was, you know, watching over and trying to keep her hands on and guiding us because of how the world is today. So I was going to the Army to be an airline stewardess. So after--I was leaving that morning, and she wakes up and says--you know, it was my day to be sworn in, so I really had to pull some strings--but after she finished talking to them, they had to kind of release me at that point, so I didn't go into the military. So, but because of being raised really strict like that and because you're limited, I think, you're really limited as to where you can go. But it wasn't my mother wanting to limit us, it was her wanting to protect us from how the world, how corrupt the world is and how prejudiceness, you know, the things that we were going to have to come against. So, I think that was why. And even 'till today, as you see, I'm still an Athenian and so are my brothers. So, basically my sister--I have a sister that lives near here and a sister in Atlanta--so we didn't really branch out that far. However, I push--we all push our offsprings to do more, to-- we still instill, we instill the same pride, the same dignity, we educate them more, but we push them harder to grow and to take on the world and to--But that's how you do through generations and generations, you know. But with that, that's what I did after high school and then after working with public health for thirty-four years, I actually retired from the state of Georgia. And I had a great experience with the state of Georgia. I actually had some workshops, I got to attend lots of trainings, and that was really good for me. Now, I experienced more prejudice during those years as an adult, I'm saying. Working with the state of Georgia and coming in contact with why people would deny you--and I really didn't even understand then if I'm well qualified for positions, you know, why people would blatantly say, no, I'm not going to, I'm not going to promote you. Then of course, as you know, as time evolves, there are different reasons why, you know, either you don't have your degree, the position may not call for a degree. So I actually realized working and watching how other people, I understand what my parents probably had to endure even though they were not working in the professional world. But even coming out into the professional world was even hard. And I can -- I really appreciate what the Civil Rights Movement meant now. I really appreciate, you know, a lot of the things--but just until today I understand so much more with seeing what is going on. So after retiring I decided that I would try to be an advocate or see what is it, you know, can I do. So I joined the Human Service Advisory Board, which is an organization here. Temporarily withdrew my membership just this year because I wasn't able to attend a lot of meetings because of the way that I work, so different hours I may not be available for their meetings and I found that I wasn't attending. But I really want to get more involved in the community because I've seen Athens really grow and I know the changes that has taken place here. I'm just one of the, I'm just the type person that want to be involved and I want to make a difference. So that's why I do the things that I do. So in lieu of being a member of the advisory board, I try to do whatever, you know, I volunteer to feed the homeless, so little things like that, that's nothing major, but I feel that, you know, I had to start someplace. Then I also decided after retiring that I would start my own business. So, and then I think back, my mother was really an entrepreneur herself because even she took on small jobs, my mother was a Stanley representative. A Stanley representative, they sold products before the degreaser--they sold degreaser--but it was products like cleaning grease and all these magnificent products you buy at the Dollar Store or Amway, it was like sister company, something like that. So she was a representative of Stanley and I watched her do her business. Now my mother only had a third grade education, but she was very smart. And how I see that today, smart and intelligent really go hand in hand. To me, to be intelligent, you know, you may go farther with pursuing your degrees. But the smarts--she actually, as I said, did her own products--She even did her own business, she was the best mathematician I could ever think of and so those type things, you know, that you don't get from--and actually, I thought that she was an intelligent person as well. And as a group of people, I find that we are an intelligent group of people. It's just what you do with it, you know, depending on how far you go with that. So I enjoy--

01:21:06Stephens: --Can I? Oh, sorry to interrupt you. Um, so. I had one more question I wanted to ask you. There's a lot that we could talk about. There's a lot that I could, I thought about interjecting and asking you more about and what you were just saying. But for now, I think, um, if I could just, if, if we could maybe conclude here and we may have a chance to talk again another time. Um, is that okay?

01:21:33Heflin: Oh yeah, sure.

01:21:34Stephens: Okay. So I'm gonna ask one and then if there's anything else that you that you wanted me to ask that I didn't after that, then that's fine. But you mentioned that Athens has, you've seen Athens change, grow a lot. Um, I'm curious, uh, how so? And sort of within that, what, what is it that you would like to see happen here moving forward? As someone who's been here since, since the 1960s. Um, so what's, what's changed most, maybe, and then what, what would you like to see going forward?

01:22:08Heflin: What has changed most is when I--the predominantly Black areas have--all those homes have been torn down and they have been replaced by either buildings and you know, new and better homes. So Athens has been made better in a sense as far as living. I guess the way, the lifestyle, the opportunities, and as well as what I would like to see better, I would like to see more Black businesses here in Athens and I would like to, I would like to see the government, Athens-Clarke County government maybe taking the initiative to set aside certain areas, you know--for example--I look when I go through the east side of Athens now, you know, over by Peter Street, Olympic Drive and everything that has been put into place, I don't think it's for the people of Athens. I think it's for, because it's a college town, it's a bigger college town than ever and it's all about the college. It's not about the people. So now we are actually in, living in a college town. It's not that used to, it's like the students come to your town. It's not that used to, it's like the students come to your town. But now it's actually a college town, and we're just the visitors per se.

01:24:05Stephens: That's something really important for people to be thinking about. I think someone who's also grown up here, seen Athens change a little bit, haven't gotten to see it for as long. So thank you for that, and for taking time to talk with me. I hate to cut it short, but again, I hope we'll have another chance to talk, and I really appreciate you being here and speaking with us.

01:24:30Heflin: Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END